Welcome And Host Introductions

SPEAKER_02 0:13

And welcome to another episode of the sales and marketing playbook Unleashed. I am your co-host, Craig Andrews, and my partner in crime, Evan Poland. How do you, sir? It's great to see you. How are you doing today? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. We have a we have a firecracker on with us today. Okay. So I want you guys to be ready. But before we do that, let me give you a quick introduction about me, and then I'll let Evan talk about him, and then we'll bring our guest on. How about that? Does that sound like a plan we should do?

SPEAKER_03 0:40

It sounds like a plan. Well, let's let's run the play.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Let's run the play. I love it. All right. So Craig Andrews, CEO of Beholder Agency, we are a growth marketing agency. And we help clients in a connected fashion by their brand, their digital presence, and their lead generation all in one so that we can get a good measurable results when we're doing your marketing. It's a very important piece of the program is to make sure everything's connected in this world of AI. And we kind of bring that to the table for our clients to make sure everything is in alignment across the, you know, we talk alignment a lot. Everything's in alignment to make sure that your marketing is working appropriately. Evan, tell the world about Poland Performance Group.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Absolutely. I thought you'd never ask. So I I am Evan Poland, the president of Poland Performance Group. And I have a sales advisory, sales coaching, sales consulting firm helping organizations that are frustrated because they're just not bringing in as much new business as they would like. Oftentimes I work with business owners, with managing partners. They have a number in mind in terms of how much business they'd like to do. But in terms of knowing what they need to do day in and day out, week in and week out, having that cookbook that you'll hear us talk about on a regular basis. How are we going to get in front of enough opportunities to be able to close the business that we need to close? How do we not get used for free consulting? How do we make sure that everybody on the team is using the same process, speaking the same language? How do we make sure that that great work that we do for our clients, we're getting the referrals, the introductions that we should be getting? So that's what I do. And we are the sales and marketing playbook. Craig and Beholder Agency are going to help to make sure that you're driving the right kind of leads in.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

And then Poland Performance Group is going to make sure that you are qualifying, closing, and then getting additional business once you bring that business in. And

Why Operations Completes The Triangle

SPEAKER_03 2:35

for today's episode, the episode's titled Where Sales, Marketing, and Operations Come Together. And at this point in time, I'd like to bring to the stage Jen Goldman from my virtual COO. So, Jen, welcome to the program. If you can introduce yourself, share with everybody a little bit about what you do.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

I'm so happy to be here with you guys. You're such a fun crew. So I guess I'm a third piece of this triangle. Um, I represent the operations side of the business. And what we do is we help businesses scale. So we're helping them recalibrate their people, optimize their technology so their people can rise up, learn, and shift around. We're doing things uh all the way from one side of the business to the other to touch into your marketing and sales effort.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

That's awesome. Go ahead, Evan.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

So I was gonna say welcome, and we're excited to have you today because we've got a marketing guy, we've got a sales guy. Operations is about as far away as possible from what we do. So I think that you're gonna bring some great insight uh for our audience today and really talk about why it's important to have a three-legged stool and to make sure that sales, marketing, and operations are all working in tandem, both in terms of internally to make sure that the organization's running well as well as externally to make sure that the client experience is going well.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Absolutely. I mean, listen, it's all about your foundation, right? If you guys are doing uh wonderful things on the marketing and sales side, but you can't close it and you can't serve it well, then you don't get the referrals. Then you don't have the reputation. So you're out of business before you even really started.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Well, we can't just close it and move on. We've actually got to service our clients and make sure that they're having a good experience.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, oh yes, especially if we're asking for Google reasons. We know we do.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

No doubt. That's correct.

Prevent Mixed Messages In An AI World

SPEAKER_02 4:30

And so what I love about all that you guys are saying here is ultimately with the world of AI, we're here, there's no avoiding it. You know, our statement, our positioning here is to make sure that the information is the same all the way through. I tell clients all the time the whisper down the lane, the telephone game that we used to play as kids is the real thing on the internet. So if your operations aren't in place to say the right things, to do the right things, to have the services that you actually offer be clear, everything from the sales to the operations gets a little flustered and everybody gets a little upset with each other. What's your take in terms of when we talked before, in terms of backwards engineering, in terms of the operation?

Backwards Engineer The Client Experience

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yeah, you know, we can always do top-down and start right at the beginning of when people experience your business. But our backwards is almost a free up time to then make the improvements and changes that you're bringing to them and then give the great experience. And that backward engineering is uh we call bottom up, right? Like looking at how are you serving that client, then back from there, what are you doing to onboard them and giving them a great experience? And then from there, it's into what you guys are doing. To be honest, it's into Evan, what you're doing to coach them, and then create what you're doing to actually bring them in and full circle. Um that's right. But our take is visualize. If you're not writing it, you don't really know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

That sounds familiar. Like you were in Evan's call. Evan, what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_03 5:57

So I I I think it's exactly right. And I I'm actually gonna use this to kind of lead into the next question for Jen, which is my guess is when you start working with businesses, there are all kinds of blind spots and those companies don't know what they don't

Find Leaks By Fixing The Seats

SPEAKER_03 6:14

know. Um yeah, I like to call it the leaky bucket. They don't even realize where there's holes that they have to plug, where things go on. So when you initially go into an organization, I know that every company is a little bit different, but are some are there some general themes that you see in terms of things that are missing, things that internally a company's not thinking about when it comes to operations and servicing their clients?

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yes. Honestly, the biggest thing we see is people in the wrong seats. You know, you got to be in your passion lane as much as you can. And this is hard. Like we're listening we're all founders of our businesses, so we're wearing multiple hats. And in a smaller business, you're doing that too. Your staff and you are wearing multiple hats. But you gotta be in your uh you respect the passion lane, make sure there's capacity for it, and then make sure there's skills, and if not, skill up. And once you have that, then you have energized people who will take on improvement changes and tech changes and everything that's coming their way because most of the time we're in a state of learning in a business, right? And you got to have time and energy for that. So that's really where we see the leaky hole or the leaky bucket or what you know in a say, like we joke about basketball offline, all three of us. Like, you know, people have a role and a position, and you've just got to honor that as much as you can.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

So I know that area of being in the right position gets a little gray. How do you, uh, I guess out of curiosity, how do you explain to the clients that you're working with that, hey, by the way, buddy, you're you're leaking over here that we can help you with.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yeah.

Map Responsibilities Without Finger Pointing

SPEAKER_00 7:49

So we have this thing called responsibilities mapping. So we actually let the team identify it for the leaders, and the leaders identify it for the team. We actually have, we take all their job descriptions, all their Kobe's and disks, all that fun stuff, right? And we throw it all in one map. And then separately, we actually write out what their client experiences are, and between the two, they can actually see the disconnect where certain people thought other people were doing something and they're not. Or certain people are doing something they don't like because there's a shed column, they're all allowed to say that. And so we give them the visual, walk them through it with them, and they come to realize we're in the wrong seats doing the wrong things. Um, and then as far as the process, that it's pretty clear when you have the gaps, you know your process is falling apart. So that's when they can start to say, like, we see this all the time, got a lot of leads coming in, but they're not closing. You're the right person. Or they're closing, and then they're putting them not in a wait, but they're not onboarding them soon enough. Another problem. They can see between those two, and maybe a little bit of process work, by the way, all documented, it's pretty clear.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

I love that. I love that. I think that um, you know, you're you're speaking the the the the proper language to Evan and I for sure.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Yeah. I uh you know uh when I do customer service trainings, which I'll do from time to time, I have an exercise or story called Nobody Did It, where everybody thinks it's somebody else who was supposed to be responsible and it was an easy enough job, and anybody could have done it, but nobody actually did it. Um and then you're you're falling towards your clients.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

You know, there's there's an old comic. There used to be, I don't remember what it was, and I remember the kid, and he had like blonde hair and he'd always point this way, and it was like a ghost figure. Like he did it. He did it, and like, you know, but how do you do that without creating friction and animosity among a team? Uh and by the way, the he did it or didn't do it could be the leader or the founder. Like, how do you do that in a way that everybody's open and vulnerable instead of again pointing fingers? And that's that's the trick.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

So when you're working with a company, what kind of mindset does that company need to have for what you do to be able to work within the company for them to be able to actually implement some of the changes?

Change Works Best With Volunteers

SPEAKER_00 10:12

I'm gonna guess it's the same as you both need, but you can copy open to changes as long as they've been sold them properly, like pre-sell um with benefits, um willing to see something they didn't want to see but felt in their gut. I mean, I know they sound very floofy, but this is the reality, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:34

It's real, that's real.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

It's real, it's real, and then willing to talk about it, you know, and and maybe that's in a quiet space, like you don't put the founder in front of the client admin person to point out a flaw, right? You have to be tactful about it. But I'm gonna guess that's the same for you guys, right? Open, good studio.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Kevin, you want to take this one first? Because this is surely for me.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

Yeah, no, so so so so a couple a couple of things. When it comes to training and coaching, my favorite saying, I'm much better with volunteers than with prisoners. So people need to want to be there. They need to want to get better. Otherwise, probably much like you, I could give them all of the tactics and techniques in the world. If they have decided before we get started that it's not gonna work and their way is the best way, then we're just wasting time, we're just wasting money. Um, and again, I think that open-mindedness, willing to be vulnerable, the other term I like to use is kind of be willing to move out of their comfort zone, be willing to try something new. Uh, another one of my favorite sayings is the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So if we're not willing to change anything, then we can't expect to be, you know, getting any different results.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah. And I think from my positioning, it comes from a marketing perspective. You know, marketing is always expect uh experimentation, right? You know, what you hear me say doesn't mean that you understood what I meant. Right? So I might say something, you interpret it differently. Marketing is the exact same way, you know, and especially for more of the professional services side where they use a lot of jargon. So think about it. I use the example all the time. Cliff notes. We're used to cliff notes as kids. AI is all cliff notes. When I think that you fit, then I'll reach out to you and call you, and then find out more. So the first impression on Cliff Notes, where the ability to change is important because you might think you do all these things, but it's not really a profit line, or you think that these things are gonna make you great, but they don't care. I think I think the thing I saw is online, it was funny, is that something like, as a marketer, my job is to make you sound the way you want to sound, make you look the way that you want to look, and then convince the end consumer that you're the right person for me.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

And Craig, as a side note, I'm not gonna point out how you may be dating yourself by using the term cliff notes. I'm just I I I I'm not gonna go there. You know, I I can picture the yellow the yellow covers now.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

The black, you know, the black and black and the yellow, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Not that I I mean I never use cliff notes, I just heard of other people who didn't use right, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

You knew that and you knew the colors and everything. Gotcha, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

It's so funny. Somebody said that to me the other day. You know, it's Spark Notes now. I'm like, no, I think it's AI now. I think we're just jumping over. But you know, it's so interesting, Craig, what you're talking about. And I mean, I know but you both know this. Greg McGowan is famous for orienting into being an you know an international speaker. And I'm actually doing his master class, and it's called Signalist, and it's around signaling. And it's this idea that what you think people are hearing, they're not hearing, they're hearing something different. And so it's it's kind of like when we do operations work because it's around changes and scaling up and moving and shifting. You have to do a little bit of an out-of-body experience of okay, I heard it, but did I hear it correctly? And then take a step back and try to hear it differently and then be open to it. And, you know, again, these are just people don't even realize these are skills in running and scaling a business and working on all the areas that we're talking about. It's um, yeah, it's not easy, but it's so worth it.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

And we didn't even get into the basketball conversation, Jen. You are awesome.

unknown 14:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

This is a slam dunk. It's yeah, it's a slam dunk. It's an alley oop.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

You can do that all day. Now I think with the next question, Craig's gonna put on the full court press, but I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

I'm ready. You're ready.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Um so from the from the how would you see the marketing and the sales side helping you do your job more efficiently?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Well, listen, the fact is that anything we're doing, there's gonna be shifting of roles, people, compensation in a good way. Like we're trying to elevate people. There has to be revenue to support that if the founders want a certain profitability number. I mean, we do PL projection through change to make sure that the bottom stays strong because we care about rewarding the people. You know what I mean? You don't want to say, oh, we're giving you all these changes, and by the way, you're not getting a bonus this year. Like quite the opposite. You should all get one. Um, so I I would just say that yeah, I guess I'm gonna leave it at that.

Operational Metrics Beyond Vanity Numbers

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

So and and actually, uh as a follow-up to that, I again for for me with sales, I'm looking at closing percentage, I'm looking at conversion, I'm looking at, you know, overall revenue, client size, those kinds of things. You know, Craig, from a marketing perspective, is not just looking at things like clicks, and again, he'll call those vanity metrics, but really looking at engagement and how many marketing qualified leads turning to sales qualified leads. On an operation side, what are some of the metrics that you're inspecting that you're looking at with the business owner for them to be able to see that they're making progress towards their goals?

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah, so easier ones are just uh improvement projects getting done in the manner or the time span that they wanted. Um, on the client service side, it's certainly how what's the number of meaningful touches? Um, whether it's outbound or inbound, that's super important. Um, listen, other KPIs on full issue for good or bad is profitability. It is revenue. We'd look just as you look at them from a different lens, we're looking at them, right? To supporting the operations of the people. Um, and there's certain ratios in a service industry, especially. There's certain standards that you want to get close to. So those are part of the KPIs. Uh, and then, you know, listen, there's a software, right? The anonymous survey of your people, your team, and they kind of still like being there.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Right. It's kind of so could could could turnover be one of the things that you're looking at?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Sure, sure. But we usually, I will be honest, we screen for that in advance. If a business comes to us and they're saying they've had high turnover for multiple years, we're not working with them. Like that's that they need a psychologist, uh business coach. We actually have one that we love, and we're like, you know, you need to go to Barbara. She's a psychologist on the business side, like, work that out first, because we can't solve for that one. But yes, yeah so the stuff is. It's more disengagement, to be honest, Evan. You know what I mean? That's true.

Human Touch And Team Happiness

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yep. The stuff you're hitting upon here, which is one of my big triggers, is the human touch within an automated world, right? And so you're touching upon human conversations here in terms of interaction. I know from a marketing perspective, a lot of things are moving to an automation perspective. I'm sorry, for an automation movement, which is fine. But the the human part in marketing is understanding who you're talking to. I believe, Evan, tell me if I'm wrong, from a sales perspective, you're trying to have conversations to find out if you're a good fit, even to take it down the path of if it's worth it. From an operations perspective, you're talking in terms of how the people are operating within it to help grow the business. Is there anything in there that that you want to highlight more of from an operational perspective in terms of the human touch, human relationship?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Well, the fact is, and we know this, if your team isn't happy, you're not gonna get more clients. You you're just not. The vibe is out there, it's in the universe, it comes through every interaction that that you know outside party has. So to me, it's just about like get the team in a good place and aligned and not overlapping each other, not taking over things from each other that they don't, you know, want to give up. And and if you get that, I I just I'm a firm believer that that helps the marketing and sales substantially. Now, it will not bring those metrics and KPIs around closes and leads as much as you might like. But we've seen so often when we get that team humming and aligned and supportive with good operations process and systems, the business just naturally grows more. Why? Because everybody's happy.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

And I I people I would bet that you could track employee happiness with client retention.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Probably could.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Because if you've got people who like doing what they're doing, like working with the clients, that's gonna come across in the client experience. But if you're turning people over all the time, people are miserable when they're talking to the client. You're you even if you're able to convert that person and bring that person in, they're probably not gonna stay very long.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah, and I bet too, if you tracked it, you could also see referrals go up. I bet also opportunities that might even be a little bit colder. You're like, how did you find us? And they can't quite remember. I think there is an absolute correlation. But you got to have a firm that's willing to like, you know, you're gonna in the airport bathroom, you have to press like the happy sign, the middle, or the sad. You need to have that in a business. Not time clocking out, just press the button as you walk over towards the end of the day. I think then we'd have great that's a great KPI, actually. I just came up with one. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

There you go. See, that's what we do with the playbook. That's right. With the plays that help everybody function and operate.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Oh god, so yeah, yeah, you came up with that idea on our show, so we do get a portion of any of that that you're able to put into practice.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

There you go.

Three Takeaways And How To Connect

SPEAKER_02 20:06

So, Jen, this is the time in this the podcast in which we give you a second to think about three things that you want to leave to our audience right before we go away. Okay, so Evan and I are going to riff here a little bit, but think about three things that you want the audience to remember uh in reference to your operations and things of that fashion. Meanwhile, if any of you have heard anything on this show with our wonderful guest Jen, who you would like to assist us with, please like, share, and comment uh on all of our platforms. We're on all the major podcast platforms. Um and you can find us at Evan, remind me again.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed. Uh and if you look up Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed on YouTube, you'll be able to see our pretty smiling faces. Uh and just remember that and with is with an ampersand sign. Um, and also you can follow the sales and marketing playbook unleashed on LinkedIn. See clips, drop his comments. If there are topics that you'd like us to cover, you agree, disagree, just let us know there.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

You see how this teamwork, Jen? I just did a nice little bounce pass to him and he finished it for me. You're so smooth.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

You're so smooth. I did like that. I feel like it's a backward Ali oop or something here going on. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

See, Evan, we've been working on this for a minute. We got it down patent. That's right. All right, Jen, you're up. Three things you want to leave to our clients.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

I feel like I'm at the three-point line. Okay, three, here we go. Three point line.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

Come on, Steph, knock it down.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

I am getting shorter too. I take it but okay. So, number one, role mapping. I want to leave you with this. A lot of businesses do not map out the level of authority people have in every area of the business. Think, excel, think, all the different departments, levels of authority from decision maker down to admin. I'll just do what you say and map it out. It is an eye-opener to no end. Um, I'm just gonna leave you with that one. Uh, responsibilities mapping number two. I kind of alluded to it. Everybody should identify every role, all the responsibilities, all in one place, one document, all together as a team. Come back to it a couple times. You will uncover things you can ideose, which means to eliminate or outsource or staff differently. You will have those epiphanies and it'll be easier to hire, shift, and train up. And the third and final, we didn't talk about it, but this is my big one. Um, funnel. I love when businesses funnel or visualize from marketing all the way down through sales and client onboarding into the client servicing. That entire visual diagram uncovers all sorts of gaps that you can fill or cut out. And that could be done. All these things are to be fair, they can all be done on whiteboards, they can all be done in a collab environment, they can all be done electronically. None of this is hard physically, mentally, but it's worth it.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

You see that no look she just gave us right there at the end.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

Yep, that's I I I did see that. So hey, and that was a good one. Now's now's your time for a shameless plug. So, how can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Uh, look up my virtualcoo.com. We're kind of older than the hills and been around, so you'll find us first on the ranking. And uh, or you can look up Jen Goldman on LinkedIn. You'll find me.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Love it. Excellent. This has been the sales and marketing playbook unleashed with our superstar three-point shooter, Jen Goldman, uh, and with the assistmaster, Evan Poland. Um, what else can I say? Come join the crowd. How about that? How about that? Come join the crowd. Follow the playbook. Listen to Jen. Listen to Evan. Listen to Craig, and we'll take you guys. Why? Why, Evan?

SPEAKER_03 23:52

Because we've got all the answers, and we're gonna help you to keep winning. Keep winning, baby.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

I love it. See the assist there again? We got this down, Jen. I love it. Listen, Evan, Craig, Evan, Craig, Jen. Wrong order.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah, you can talk about yourself, third person.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

We will talk to you guys next time. Keep winning.

unknown 24:13

Keep winning.