SPEAKER_00: 0:12

Welcome to the sales and marketing playbook Unleashed, the premier podcast for innovative growth strategies, hosted by two seasoned experts. Meet Evan Poland, the president of Poland Performance Group, a master in sales coaching with over two decades of experience. Evan is not just a consultant, he's a force in sales, focusing on mindset, planning, and skill development. He's also the co-author of Selling Professional Services The Sandler Way. Joining him is Craig Andrews, partner and CEO of Beholder Agency, an expert in growth marketing. With 20 years under his belt, Craig blends marketing creativity with strategy to propel businesses forward, making Beholder Agency a leader in effective marketing solutions. Together, Evan and Craig are here to share their wisdom on winning strategies, best practices, and transformative insights that will fuel your growth. Get ready to revolutionize your sales and marketing approach right here on the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11

And welcome to the Sales and Marketing Playbook. I am Craig Andrews, and there's my partner in crime, Evan Poland. Good morning, Evan. How are you doing? And happy new year.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21

Happy New Year. Great to see you, Craig. I'm doing great. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02: 1:25

Not too bad. Not too bad. It's a brand new year, and we're going to go right at it. We're going to attack the businesses who need our help. How about that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:35

That sounds like a great plan. I know in 2025 we both help helped a lot of businesses grow. And the goal for both of us this year is to both help help more businesses as well as continue to add to that playbook to give all of our clients, to give all of our listeners the answers to the questions they didn't even realize they should be asking.

SPEAKER_02: 1:57

Great, great. I love how you set that up. So I'm going to start off by saying a simple question. Have you ever heard of sushi sold in a gas station?

SPEAKER_01: 2:06

I I hear it's a great way to get sick for a couple of days.

SPEAKER_02: 2:12

How about uh a yoga studio inside of a barbecue shop?

SPEAKER_01: 2:16

That doesn't really make sense.

SPEAKER_02: 2:18

No, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_01: 2:19

Sticky mat.

SPEAKER_02: 2:20

Sticky mat. I love it. I love it, right? So the reason why I'm gonna bring that stuff up uh is because there's a lot of times there's a lot of confusion that goes on with business owners, a lot of confusion in the perception behind when it comes to something like marketing, right? Um, and in a lot of cases, what happens is that there's different types of agencies, right? So you you've dealt with a lot of businesses, you've done a lot of digital agencies in the whole nine yards. Tell me about the different type of agencies that you know of.

SPEAKER_01: 2:48

Sure. And again, sometimes I I equate it to, yeah, yeah, somebody mentions marketing, yeah, somebody mentions candy. Candy can be chocolate, not chocolate, it can be, you know, bars, it can be all kinds of different things. Um, in my experience with marketing, you've got people who you've got more quote-unquote marketing companies who are really website companies, and they build websites, but they'll kind of brand themselves as marketing companies. You have those companies that'll do the brochures, they'll do the PowerPoint presentations, they'll do kind of the you know standalone projects that may or may not actually fit into a larger strategy. Uh, you do have some marketing agencies uh that will do a little bit of both. You know, some that you know are hyper-focused in particular industries, some who are more generalist. Um, but yeah, that that there's lots of different flavors out there in the marketplace.

SPEAKER_02: 3:44

Absolutely. And to piggyback on that, you know, you have branding agencies whose only job is the brand, but it does seem like a global thing for a lot of our clients. You do have advertising agencies who really spend a lot of money to advertise their business.

SPEAKER_01: 3:57

Yeah, but PR firms, yeah, absolutely. You've got all kinds of different kinds of flavors of you know marketing that are out there. That's right.

SPEAKER_02: 4:07

And so today's focus of today's episode is what top agencies really do to help get leads through business-to-business transactions, business to business lead generation that's done in a revenue-focused way, right? And so we define that as a growth marketing agency. Um, and so before we get too deep into the growth marketing agency, for all you guys who are listening and watching, if you see that subscribe button down below and it is not says follow or is not, you know, you don't see other episodes of ours and stuff like that, you need to follow right away. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 4:40

So Craig, that's not true. Nana, the folks who are making more money than they can spend, who can't even control their that that they don't need to subscribe. You know, everybody else who is looking to provide, you know, drive more revenue in 26 and 25, those are the ones who should subscribe.

SPEAKER_02: 4:57

I agree. I agree, because we're here to help you, we're giving you the playbook. And so the thing I want everybody to realize here as we continue forward here, um, growth marketing is actually everywhere. When you really think about it, those companies that you just referenced who are making all this revenue generally are those major companies. Well, Evan and I, we'd like to focus on more the small to medium-sized businesses who really need the help. And so, if you think about what a big agency or a big Coca-Cola, someone in that fashion might do, they have the ability to use their revenue in addition to their strategy, which Evan alluded upon before, to really generate good quality leads because they already have much of their marketing.

SPEAKER_01: 5:33

And those companies can afford to have dozens and dozens and dozens of people focused in a marketing department, where the large majority of our audience are business owners who had a great idea, service providers who went out there, started their own firm.

SPEAKER_02: 5:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 5:52

Business development marketing is kind of a piece that came on. It's not the reason why they started their business. Um, and oftentimes they don't have the ability to hire lots and lots of experts internally to work for their company and they're outsourcing their firms like yours and mine. That's right to help get them to that next level and help them be able to focus on what they do really well and the reason that they started their business or their firm, which isn't necessarily the marketing or the business development.

SPEAKER_02: 6:22

That's right. They're usually focused on something a bit grander. And so a lot of times what we've been through on many occasions, and Evan and I have worked on projects together in which we've seen in many occasions, marketing blames sales, sales blames marketing, and all of a sudden it's a complaint match back and forth. And now the client is going, Will you guys please fix this? I need to get more leads, which is not necessarily the truth, is we're going to go through forward later. What kind of reaction have you had with people in that scenario?

SPEAKER_01: 6:49

Absolutely. It's either, you know, it's not working and they're just pointing fingers, uh, it's not working and they're throwing more money at it. Um, it's not working and they try to save their way to prosperity. They have had it down years, so they try to cut all of their expenses, which doesn't fix the fact that if they don't bring in revenue, they're only going to stay in business for so long anyway.

SPEAKER_02: 7:12

That's right.

SPEAKER_01: 7:12

Um, or you know, a lot a lot of folks will just kind of bury their head in the sand, ignore it, hope the issue goes away, which is never a solution to fix an issue like this.

SPEAKER_02: 7:24

Agreed, agreed. And so growth marketing really is a systematic experimentation tied to revenue. Let me repeat that again. A systematic experimentation tied to revenue. Marketing is not a fix-all, advertising is not a fix-all, and this is nothing to do with spending more money, as we were alluded to the big boys who just had the more money. It's nothing to do with spending more money and expecting more leads to come in because that's almost a fool's gold, right? That's a false, that's a false number. You can spend a lot of money and still get bad leads, right? So, part of the process of growth marketing is to make sure that the marketing processes in the system that you're running is tied to the business-to-business sales process, which is why the two experts are sitting here trying to tell you, is tied to a sales process that now goes forward. What's your what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_01: 8:13

And I would completely agree from a sales perspective. If I have five times as many leads, but they're not good leads, I'm gonna be really busy wasting my time spinning my wheel. If a lot of my compensation is based on closed business, uh, because very few companies get paid by the lead, get paid by the proposal, we get paid by a bit when you know business closes. So if we're just generating lots and lots of leads that aren't good qualified leads, we're wasting everybody's time, we're wasting a lot of money and getting a lot of people very frustrated.

SPEAKER_02: 8:48

Yes. And so if growth marketing is about revenue, then we have to talk about why lead generation breaks down in the first place. And let me start off with one of the points here. Usually marketing agencies are tied to MQLs, marketing qualified leads. But the reality is that people like Evan and who he trains are need to be tied to SQLs, which is sales qualified leads. There's a huge difference between the two. Before I go into depth in terms of the marketing qualified lead, Evan, how do you see a sales qualified lead? What makes a sales qualified lead for you?

SPEAKER_01: 9:21

A sales qualified lead, from my perspective, is when we're talking to someone who could actually utilize the products or services we're selling. That that they fit within the sweet spot where what we're providing is something that they could potentially use. There is a chance if I show value, that there could be budget for that. And those are really the two things. Is this a user of our product or service? Is this someone who could, if they see the value, spend the money? If so, it's a sales qualified lead.

SPEAKER_02: 9:57

Beautiful. And to piggyback on the front part of that is that MQL, the marketing qualified lead, is somebody who just has interest but may not have the budget yet, who has interest, who might be doing the kind of the tire kicking before they actually get into it. So a lot of times when leads are coming in and salespeople are saying that the marketing qualified lead or that lead that came in is trash, it's probably because they're not ready now, right? And so that's important to have the communication back and forth with the salesperson because at the end of the day, if it turns out to be an MQL, you need to be able to kick it back to the marketing team so we can keep nurturing them until they're ready to make that decision. A lot of times before we buy anything, because remember, these are longer sales cycles. This isn't this isn't buying a brand new pen. This is the this is this could be a you know, generally the clients we're dealing with have bigger price tags, so they have to take the time to show that value. So maybe during that process, we didn't show enough value in the marketing that that needs to go back to them so we can show them more value. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 10:55

Or it could be, and this is where sales and marketing need to communicate, that it's not even really a marketing qualified lead. Maybe it is you know for products that we were selling before, but maybe you know what we're offering has changed, or maybe the marketplace is changing. And oftentimes it's the salespeople who are having the quality conversations who are saying, gee, you know, who was our customer six months ago? I don't really think that's our customer anymore. I think our customers evolved to this because everybody that we're now talking to that was in that bucket that used to be good for us, yeah, it doesn't seem to be a fit anymore. And that's where the conversation needs to happen because marketing can't make the tweaks in terms of the audience that should be targeted unless they're getting the feedback from what's going on in the field. And again, that can only happen if sales and marketing are on the same page.

SPEAKER_02: 11:48

And I love how you set me up for that one. You know I'm a big fan of data, right? My whole thing data, data, data. Some of the best data that I can get from is actually from the sales team. Marketing is partially about perception. So if you have a scenario where I'm sitting there and I'm trying to sell this pen, and you tell me in the field that you found out that they that we sell tires, uh-oh. There's that there's that sushi in the gas station scenario again, right? And ultimately we're going, wait a minute, the messaging is wrong. Things like the messaging is incredibly important because you and I have both been on uh client uh talks and call and talks with clients and been in a situation where they said, Hey, I want to do this, and we're going, wait, hold on, hold on. I thought you did that. No, no, no, no, we stopped doing that five years ago. Whoa, then your your whole messaging is wrong. And that's where it goes to what you were referencing in terms of some marketing agencies don't give you the strategy. You might have a website, but that doesn't have a strategy. You might have brochures and things like that, or a logo, but you don't have a strategy. There's a totally different thing there, and that's what growth marketing kind of brings to the table here for you. Have you had any weird scenarios like that happen from a sales perspective?

SPEAKER_01: 12:58

Yeah, absolutely. Or, you know, an organization is growing and what was a good client before is now too small of a client, but we haven't updated our marketing. So we are still attracting all of those really, really small clients that we don't have time to service anymore when we should be targeting you know mid-sized larger clients. But again, if sales and marketing aren't talking and they think that, hey, you know, what we're doing, we've been praised the last two or three years. So we think that we should be putting you know, putting gas on that fire and doing more of it. But if in the field it's like, okay, guys, we only have so much capacity, we now need to go up market. Yeah, if that message isn't properly communicated, then the wrong kinds of leads are gonna come in, even though they were they were great leads six months a year, two years ago. That's part of why that communication is so key. And here's a pro tip.

SPEAKER_02: 13:52

Here's a pro tip from a marketing expert. The transition cannot be fast, right? So you can't come to me tomorrow and said, by the way, we're gonna sell pen and tires, and then all of a sudden expect sales to start to happen. That's just not real, right? Just as Evan alluded to, you need time to adjust the messaging and you need time for it to filter through the stream of everybody's understanding. And the perfect example is what we did for ourselves is we originally started as a video production company. Remember when we made the switch to doing more marketing? And everybody goes, Hey, I still need videos done. We go, we still do videos, but we're doing more marketing as well. It took two years for people to realize that we weren't a video production company only, and that transition is true for everybody. Have you ever had people who've had that type of transition and then realized, why am I still getting this old stuff?

SPEAKER_01: 14:43

Yep, absolutely. And one of the things that I tell my clients all the time, as we're talking about cross-selling and upselling, for the most part, people will remember you for whatever you first pitched to them or however they first met you. So I've got clients that will, you know, provide multiple services, sell a lot of different things, and clients had no idea because the first thing they did with them is X, and they had no idea that Y and Z even existed. And sometimes even will go back two or three times and remind them about Y, and Z. And unless it's consistent, they it's just burned into their brain. Well, you helped me with this first, so this must just be what you do. That's right. And it takes a lot of getting that messaging across, it takes constant reminders. Otherwise, they'll just only remember you for whatever that first context was was in regards to. That's right. And so another pro tip.

SPEAKER_02: 15:42

If if and uh to adding conclude the section, uh if sales hates their leads, growth marketing is failing. Right? If sales hates their leads, your marketing is failing you. Because at the end of the day, you have a scenario in which the messaging, the targeting, the ideal client profile is not matching any longer in some way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_01: 16:02

Right. And if you're in sales, you are failing the marketing team if you're not telling them why the leads suck. If you're like, oh, this is just is no good. If you can't point to if marketing comes back and says, I hear you, why is that no good? If you can't give them an answer, then you're a part of the problem. There you go. Not a part of the solution. So if you are disqualifying opportunities, if you're in front of bad opportunities, make note why was it a bad opportunity? Was it the wrong title person that we were targeted? Did they think that we did something different? Was it too big? Was it too small? But what was the challenge? Because the better that we are in terms of feeding that information back to marketing, the more effective they're going to be in terms of making those tweaks that are going to get us back on track.

SPEAKER_02: 16:51

Absolutely. And so we've talked about a lot of the problems. So let's talk about the solution. So, what to you, in your training processes and in what you tell your clients, what does a high quality lead look like?

SPEAKER_01: 17:05

For my clients, a high-quality lead is one in which the prospect is a buyer or has a need, has problems that us as the seller can solve. We are talking to and targeting the right level within the organization. And it's at least on the roadmap that they are going to be ready or they have some kind of time frame in which they want to address the issue. That's what we're looking for. So right decision maker, right industry, they've got problems that we can solve, and they are considering some kind of solution to fix that problem.

SPEAKER_02: 17:52

And so transversely, you know, we look at from a marketing growth marketing perspective in the three type of filters the uh ideal client profile, fit, where it plays in the strategy to make sure that sales and marketing are in the same place. And and we've said in other episodes before, making sure that the the boss, the owner, is in is having the right conversations with the teams, right? So that's important because if they see their profile as people who make a half a million dollars or the businesses do whatever, and we're seeing somebody at a at you know 200,000, we're already off, right? So as small as that in terms of business size, in terms of employee size, all those ICPs are important.

SPEAKER_01: 18:29

In terms of the real Well, I and can't can I stop you there for a second? Yeah, business owners. If you change your mind every 30 days in terms of what you're selling, in terms of who you want to target, sales and marketing don't have any chance whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02: 18:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 18:48

So we understand that occasionally there needs to be changes, there needs to be shift in the strategy and what we're doing. But if the only constant is the change, then sales and marketing don't have any chance whatsoever of being successful.

SPEAKER_02: 19:04

And we've had to be the bad guys before. Don't get us wrong. We've had to be the bad guys and go, wait a minute, 30 days ago, we just had an in-depth conversation in which we broke down the ICPs, et cetera, et cetera. The sales p KPIs. We've already done that work. What made the switch happen? So a lot of times that's a great point of it, and that makes all both of us cease and stop. What changed? Why did it change? How did it change? And now we got to redo all that again, which slows down the sales process and the marketing process to try to generate the leads that we promised. Excuse me. Another point here in terms of it is the real problems, right? And so here's the big catch in terms of what I'm on my soapbox telling people all the time now the internet has changed for sure. It's no longer about features and benefits. It has nothing to do with that as much anymore. It's important when you get down the funnel. But realistically, the internet now is about answering people's problems because. Onset of AI. And if I'm going to a scenario where I go to Google and I'm looking for the best tires in North Carolina, and I'm in a position where it shows me something that has nothing to do with tires, then that means that I'm not getting the answer I'm looking for, which is why people are generally going to chat. Because generally chat is searching the internet to give me directly those answers. And I think that that's a key point for people to understand in terms of what the real problem that people are trying to get answers to. And if you're the one answering it, you're going to have success. Growth marketing brings that type of uh A B testing to the table to allow you to be in a position to find out what the true problem is and then answer it regularly.

SPEAKER_01: 20:42

And Craig, I think this also brings up something that I think that both of us come across all the time, which is if you're stuck in that mindset of, well, this is what I've always done, you're going to be in big trouble. Things are changing quicker. They're changing quicker now than they ever have before. And if you are stuck in the past, and if you are stuck in, well, this is how we've always done it, or this is how we used to do it, or this is what used to work, you're getting passed by by your competitors who are keeping up with the times, who are making the changes in the tweak that's necessary to do what's working today, not doing what's working, what worked in 2020 or 2015.

SPEAKER_02: 21:25

Absolutely. Absolutely. And those are these are important talk points for you guys as our audience to truly understand. And so as we start to round out the show here, what I want people to understand is the importance of aligning sales and marketing around one growth goal, right? There can be many sub goals, but there has to be one overall goal to make sure that we are on this, did it again, that we are on the same page in terms of how we can drive you guys forward. And I think that when you think about it, have separate KPIs create separate priorities. Shift your MQLs to sales accepted leads, pipeline created, revenue influenced. Think about that again. Let me say it again, slower. Sales accepted leads, leads that you accept, pipelines, right? So usually a lot of times what happens is that those particular leads might have other opportunities within it, which thus makes sales a little easier. Because now that you've solved that problem, there's other problems that you could solve relatively quick. Excuse me, and revenue influenced. You can get a client that pays you now, but it may not be enough to justify the time you're putting into it. That's also ties to growth marketing because again, growth marketing is tying sales and marketing together to help drive businesses forward. It's not just designing a pretty logo, it's not just about having a nice brochure, it's not just about having a great website, it's all of it combined to help drive revenue. So just remember that.

SPEAKER_01: 22:52

And along with that strategy, so if you're providing multiple products, multiple services, what drives the greatest margin? What would you like to be doing more of? And then is the marketing that you're doing driving leads in those areas? Or again, are we looking at every lead as being created equal?

unknown: 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:10

Which, if that's the case, you're probably not going to be really happy with your profitability and where your folks are spending their time.

SPEAKER_02: 23:18

And so I know you teach us a lot in terms of different channels that drive leads. Okay. So your favorite LinkedIn, sales uh content from our end. We'd like to have a lot of content on the internet. Sometimes email sequencing. Sometimes emails can be a little funky because you really do have to have a community that is going to be willing to take in your emails. So that's that's a that's a catch-22, depending on the scenario.

SPEAKER_01: 23:42

Yeah, but I've got a client I'm working with right now that has to start from scratch. They were blasting out so many emails that you know people were not opening, that now servers are rejecting their emails that are going out, and they've got to start all over again and start by sending out a couple emails at a time so that their URL can have credibility. Um, so again, be really careful if you're just randomly spamming spamming out to a large group of folks that may not be qualified, may not open the emails that you're sending out. All the time it happens.

SPEAKER_02: 24:18

And so, all of this is by the way, growth marketing is also a systematic experimentation. So if those emails aren't working, you just continue to beat down the same horse, all of a sudden you now have problems that sales and marketing have to go back and fix. So we're trying to give you the tips ahead of time so that you know how to fix the issue. And so now, just a couple finishing points again. I keep saying that. Growth comes with testing, not guessing. Right? I know you said what's your line about the um uh strategy sales without strategy. Is was that how did that go again?

SPEAKER_01: 24:51

Uh yeah, no, well, it it's just you know, it's just beating a dead horse, it's just activity for activity's sake. And very few companies that I know get paid by the email, get paid by the proposal. It's a matter of when we're talking to quality folks and business comes in.

SPEAKER_02: 25:11

Okay, yep, absolutely. So as we round out here, growth marketing is about revenue, it's a revenue system, not just marketing tactics or activities for activity sakes. Um, sales and marketing must operate as one team. I said one team, one team, and better alignment beats more spend. This is not about throwing money at it. Growth doesn't come from more activity, it comes from better alignment. And that's a huge deal when it comes to the growth marketing process. And so Evan and I in this year are going to be launching different programs in terms of combining our services for you. And so look forward to what's coming in terms of us having our knowledge and his knowledge come together to deliver packages for you guys as our audience. And if you're interested, we're here to help because we really want to help in 26. We want to help companies grow. We have a dedicated mission to help companies grow. So if you're interested, by all means, reach out to me, reach out to Evan, reach out to our podcast in any way, shape, or form. And again, only the only the people who really are good are going to subscribe to our podcast anyway, right? So might as well do it already because you're gonna do it eventually, right? Only when you're ready to start winning. Exactly, from the door. Uh, and so we'd love to hear from you. What's the biggest challenge between sales and marketing at your company right now? Let us know in the comments. And again, subscribe, subscribe and review. If you're getting value from the show, make sure you subscribe and leave us a review because we want to know that what we're telling you is working for you. Uh, it's very important for us. Uh, and in terms of the next episode, in the next episode, we're going to break down how to turn sales conversions into high converting marketing campaigns so that you don't miss out. Anything you want to add to that, Evan?

SPEAKER_01: 26:59

Now, if there are particular topics that you'd like us to cover throughout the year, just please drop us a comment, drop us a link. We're going to be providing you great content. We're going to be providing you great guests, and we're looking forward to a productive and profitable 2026 with all of you, our listeners.

SPEAKER_02: 27:16

I agree. I love it, I love it. And so again, I'm Craig Andrews. There's Evan Poland, and you can see us on Spotify, all of those podcast platforms on YouTube, so you can see our wonderful faces and get our beautiful expressions. And we will see you guys next time and keep winning. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00: 27:38

Thank you for joining us on this exhilarating journey through the world of sales and marketing. Remember, the playbook is in your hands and the possibilities are limitless. Keep exploring, experimenting, and innovating, and watch as your business reaches unprecedented levels of success. Don't forget to subscribe to the sales and marketing playbook unleashed on all major podcast platforms and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn for even more exclusive content. Until next time, keep hustling and keep winning.