Speaker 1: 0:19

Thank you. Meet Evan Polin, the president of Polin Performance Group. A master in sales coaching with over two decades of experience, evan is not just a consultant. He's a force in sales, focusing on mindset, planning and skill development. He's also the co-author of Selling Professional Services, the Sandler Way. Joining him is Craig Andrews, partner and CEO of Beholder Agency. An expert in growth marketing With 20 years under his belt, craig blends marketing creativity with strategy to propel businesses forward, making Beholder Agency a leader in effective marketing solutions. Together, evan and Craig are here to share their wisdom on winning strategies, best practices and transformative insights that will fuel your growth. Get ready to revolutionize your sales and marketing approach right here on the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed.

Speaker 2: 1:11

And welcome to the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed. I'm Craig Andrews and my co-host and my forever friend, Evan Poland. Hey, Evan, how are you?

Speaker 3: 1:20

I'm doing great today, craig, how are you doing?

Speaker 2: 1:22

Not doing too bad. So do you like success, evan? I love success. Yeah, I think we got into business because success is important for us, and so we, as we do on every well, not every episode, but as we do on our podcast we like to bring people who's going to bring success to your business? And I'm going to repeat as I've done in many episodes before this is the sales and marketing playbook and we're giving you the answers to succeed in your business. And it's important to make sure you're not just hearing from me, that you're not just hearing from Evan. That right now, is the right way and we want to make sure that you guys who are listening are finding tools and keys. That makes things successful. Before we bring on our guest, evan, do you have anything you want to add?

Speaker 3: 2:08

Yeah, I was going to say before we bring on our guest. As you all know, craig and I like to bring on guests, like to bring on people who can provide additional expertise to what Craig and I bring to the table. And sometimes we want to bring you the answers before you ask the questions and sometimes, if we're struggling, if we feel like we're on that treadmill and not quite sure why, we want to be able to help you think through what some of those reasons might be and, again, give you some of those resources that hopefully, for a lot of you, will help you before you get into those problems and for those of you who are currently running into some of the challenges, hopefully bring some resources to the table that can help you get through that and get to that next level.

Speaker 2: 2:52

So let me bring to the stage someone who clearly likes success and wants to be a partner with you in your success. I'm going to bring to the stage Daya Nafe Daya. How are you today?

Speaker 4: 3:04

Great, great to be here, craig and Evan. Good to see y'all.

Speaker 2: 3:07

You too. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your business? The Success Partner.

Speaker 4: 3:12

The Success Partner yes, thank you for leading in with that. So the Success Partner is a consultancy. We do coaching, a blend of coaching and consulting, specifically in the legal industry. So we work with both individual lawyers and small to medium-sized law firms on strategy development, holistic planning, a lot of teamwork exercises, visioning, branding and also AI strategy.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Very good, very good, and so part of what we're going to talk about today is branching a little bit into the AI space. So I know through our conversations that you are loving the transformation that's happening with AI. Tell me, from your perspective, how AI is working for your business.

Speaker 4: 3:58

Absolutely For my business, and it is sort of a jump in with both feet and try not to get too overwhelmed. Luckily, I'm in some communities of other professionals that are very well versed in what's new, what's coming out, what they've tried, what works, what doesn't work, so that I can really streamline that and narrow down information for my clients. Narrow down information for my clients Now, legal industry as a whole. It's a very traditional occupation, very traditional profession.

Speaker 3: 4:26

And so you're being very kind there.

Speaker 4: 4:28

I'm being very kind, yeah. So some say like risk spotting. They're a risk spotting type of industry for the most part, but some are, of course, mavericks and innovators and legal rebels, if you will. So there are some people who have also jumped in both feet, but, generally speaking, adaptation has been slower in this particular industry. So I'm treading lightly, while staying true to my mission and vision of bringing efficiencies and having a better life for the firms and the firm owners that I work with.

Speaker 3: 5:07

So what are some of the challenges that you see? Firms that don't embrace technology and firms who aren't willing to look forward and are still using their fax machines and delivering things by carrier. What are some of the challenges that you see that firms can run into if they don't start to embrace technology and embrace the new way of doing things?

Speaker 4: 5:30

Yeah, absolutely Just competitive advantage right out of the gate If you're going to start losing business, if you are not the most efficient and cost, because we're going to bring those cost savings on to our clients. And I feel there's going to be a move to value-based pricing instead of just hourly billing, especially now with some of these new technologies, hours and weeks of time that would take to do manually can now be done in minutes.

Speaker 4: 5:58

You know it doesn't make sense to do the hourly-based billing anymore, the skill being the lawyer or the skilled and seasoned paralegal. Their value is like knowing what to do, knowing what issues to spot, knowing what things need to be fed into the technology and retrieved out of the technology and double-checked and fact-checked and strategized. So that's like their value and knowledge. It's not grinding through massive amounts of paperwork hour after hour after hour.

Speaker 2: 6:30

And so, Evan, just to make sure our listeners completely understand, why don't you give everybody a value-based pricing from a sales perspective and what that means?

Speaker 3: 6:44

based pricing from a sales perspective and what that means. So value based pricing is really working with your clients to make sure that they're getting a good return on investment, really understanding the problems that they need solved and showing them how you can solve it. And I think that, craig and Day, you'll both agree with this. Our clients don't want to know how the sausage is made. They don't care how things are done on the back end, they just know, hey, I'm hiring you for this, can you help me with this and what's it going to cost.

Speaker 3: 7:13

And I would imagine that if a firm is still doing things manually and they're saying, well, geez, we're going to have to bill you for 35 hours to get this done, and another firm saying, hey, with technology and then just double checking, we can do this in five hours, as the client, who are you going to want to hire? And the other thing in that day, I'd love to get your feedback on this as well. I'd also think, as firms are looking to recruit new people to come in, if one firm is saying, okay, well, no, we're very traditional and we're going to do this the old school way, and making somebody go through boxes and boxes of documents and spending a full week to do something. And another firm that's fully embraced automation says hey look, we're going to automate this and then we're going to go and use our expertise and you're only going to spend five hours doing this and you'll be able to spend the rest of your week doing other things that that young professional is going to want to work with the firm that is really embracing technology.

Speaker 4: 8:19

Yeah, absolutely yeah, I don't know I don't know if there was a question in there, because it's like we're speaking.

Speaker 2: 8:24

You're speaking my language there, so yes, Think about the language for the audience, because they don't know what you guys know. We are the experts here.

Speaker 4: 8:33

True, thank you. Thank you, craig, for for pointing that out. And and yes, so definitely with attracting talent, which is difficult. I mean it's difficult in every industry now, but especially the legal industry. The accounting industry is even worse. They want to be new associates. They want to be what we've always wanted to be doing doing the cool legal work and not sifting through paperwork for literally years of our lives as we started practice.

Speaker 4: 9:02

So, definitely, having associates that are eager to utilize technology so that they could learn more quickly and learn into doing more skilled legal type work. You don't want to send them right off to court their first week of being at the firm, but you know they could certainly spend more time tagging along to court, you know, viewing things, going to online hearings and things like that, where they can then start developing a niche or a specialty where you know again back in the day, it would be just I don't know, years of your life really just putting, pushing the papers around and getting things, getting things organized you know where. Now that doesn't take, doesn't take as long as if, if they're fully, if they are fully embracing technology.

Speaker 3: 9:49

Right and I, you know you're coming from it from the culture building and the operations point of view. For myself, from the sales point of view, automation is becoming more and more and people are using AI, but why handcraft and create each individual email when you can utilize a HubSpot, a Pardot, a Salesforce and put together a chain that not only you can put out a hundred times more in the same period of time, but actually track who's clicking, who's opening, who you should be following up with? Why recreate the wheel a hundred different times with a unique email every time, versus going into a platform like a chat GTP and having it help you with a five, you know, touch sequence, I think, and craig you, I'm sure you can talk to it from a marketing perspective as well. But people who aren't going to be willing to embrace this technology are really, really going to fall behind and I think they're falling behind a little bit now and going to fall behind exponentially if they don't get up to speed with what's going on around them.

Speaker 2: 11:01

Yeah, I think I think they hit it right on the head. Right, we're talking about finding a workforce. The workforce grew up on technology that we may not have had. So the reason they're going to fall behind and you guys touched upon some of the data points the reason they're going to fall behind is because the technology is going to move really, really fast. And I'll just give you a small example, which has nothing to do with necessarily business, but when we first started our business we were a video production company.

Speaker 2: 11:25

My camera alone just the camera, not the lens was $60,000 just to compete and I was the low guy. So now, with technology, everybody has a cell phone that takes beautiful pictures. Probably that rivals that camera that I had years ago. So if you don't learn to adapt with whatever it might be, in whatever industry you're at, whether it be chat, gpt or automation in some ways to streamline your work a little better, you're going to fall behind. Because everybody can feel when things take forever Now there are those out there who assume they should have been done yesterday.

Speaker 2: 12:01

That's different, because everybody can feel listen, the last experience I had, they got it done in a week. You guys are taking a month. We all know that feeling and I think that today's point in terms of following the efficiencies and seeing the efficiencies and helping people who might be slow in the transition of those efficiencies, is really, really important. The question I have for you, daya, is talk to us about some of the clients maybe not specifically by name, the clients that you had who might have had trouble transitioning in the inefficiency or just didn't know they were inefficient.

Speaker 4: 12:35

Yeah, I think a lot of it is. You don't know what, you don't know what I see in the profession, and you just jump in and you start working and so you're working your cases and you're, you know, you're pursuing your clients, you work your cases, you close your cases, you get, you know, you get paid, of course, billing along the way, and you don't really come up for air and think about a strategic approach to running a firm. And now a firm could be one attorney, you know, or one attorney in a paralegal. It doesn't have to be, you know, a mega firm. It doesn't have to be the marble building downtown and just not able to take a minute and look and strategize.

Speaker 4: 13:15

So there is a lot of stuff that they don't know. They don't know what they don't know. And attorneys are constantly being sold to and bombarded with buy this new software, or do this new thing, or outsource this or market that. And so having just a minute, taking a minute and it's one of the things we do with our clients is really just kind of try to take them off-site if possible and say, hey, we really need to unpack some things that are fundamental to you, fundamental values to you, fundamental values to your firm, and, like all this other moving around part, you know that can, that, can wait. And then, once you do, you start to see, well, what would this be used for? It's not we could buy it, we can afford it. It's what would we actually use it for? And whether or not it's a good, a good fit. If it's a good fit now, if it's going to be a good fit later, a better fit later, is there someone who's actually going to utilize it? What's their relationship with it?

Speaker 2: 14:05

There's a lot of moving parts to it, and so I can imagine a law firm that you focus on is in a position where they've always done it, especially if they got older professionals who are used to doing things a certain way and they're trying to train somebody who's younger who might have said I'm taking notes on my phone or something silly like that. That just recently happened to me. I must be that old guy, and so that part of things in terms of it is very important, evan. Do you have feedback on it? That part of things in terms of it is very important, evan do you have feedback on it?

Speaker 3: 14:43

Yeah, and I also think and you probably have some examples when people just kind of have their heads down just doing the work, sometimes they get on a track that they didn't plan for the firm to go on. They fall behind, they're not doing the work and they're just not quite sure why they're not moving in the direction. They feel like they're working really, really hard, but they feel like they're on the hamster wheel and not making a lot of progress. And I would imagine that you see a lot of that, and especially when you're able to take people off site, when you're able to get them to unplug for a little while, my guess is it helps them to kind of refocus and kind of go okay. Well, what are we doing all of this for? And not only how do we get through next week, but where do we want to be in a couple of years and how do we make sure that we make that happen? Is that any of what you run into?

Speaker 4: 15:35

Oh yeah, absolutely. You have to look at the micro and the macro and then the triage what I call the triage and the long-term planning. Yeah, I will find people who are working really hard to secure clients in a certain practice area or a certain product that they're marketing, only to come to find out that's like they're least profitable and most how to put it challenging or most energy draining. And I'm like you've worked so hard, you've got your marketing people, you've got your salespeople, they're all bringing you in this client that, at the end of the day, is an energy drainer and not as profitable as some of the other ones that you actually like to work on. They're like oh wow, I didn't even know. It's just the marketing was working so well and we were just able to sell so many of those. It's like, yeah, but you're buying yourself more of what you don't want and I've done the opposite in firms.

Speaker 3: 16:29

I've gone into multi-practice firms and they're like, geez, we think we're going to cut our employment practice. It's not really growing that much. And it's well, geez, how many of the firm's clients are companies? How many companies are you working with in terms of M&A, incorporation, real estate? They're like, oh no, we've got lots of those. It's like, well, okay, well, you're really busy in the day-to-day. Let's take a step back. How many times have you referred in your employment partners to those firms and like, well, what would they really need? It's like, okay, well, do you have any idea what percentage of your clients have employee handbooks? What percentage of your clients have had an employee sue them over the last two or three years?

Speaker 3: 17:18

And we've seen larger firms have seven figure increases in the first year just by taking a practice area that they didn't know what to do with. They didn't think it was going to be productive. But when they're so busy and caught up in the day-to-day it's tough for them to take a step back and have that strategic conversation. And, craig, to what you do with the technology. These days we've got so many tools that should be able to tell us what's your most profitable practice area? What practice area are your collections the best and then be able to focus on that versus. You know it's 20, 25, 30 years ago where you know maybe you were tracking your billing but we didn't have the robust CRM where you know sometimes we were guessing or, you know, keeping notes on spreadsheets. But now there's really no excuse not to know what you should and shouldn't be pushing to make your firm more profitable and to make your employees happier.

Speaker 2: 18:18

You know, I think one of the advantages that we, as the three of us, bring to the table is that in each one of our specific disciplines we're bringing a consultation piece. Because we are on the outside looking in, we can see things a little clearer because we're not in the day-to-day, as you referenced, and you know, our job is somewhat, to a degree, to ask the hard questions that they don't want to ask inside, and I think by doing that it opens the door for more conversations, more opportunity, more growth, more success. And even though we make it seem easy, it really is a concentrated, holistic approach that we have. So to make sure that we're crossing our I's and dotting our T's. Wait, other way, we're dotting our I's and crossing our T's. I did that on purpose but, nobody challenged me on that.

Speaker 4: 19:06

We're paying attention.

Speaker 3: 19:09

And I think you know, I think we all deal with managing partners, we all deal with business owners who got into it because they love doing what they were doing, not that they necessarily went in with the thought of building a business and going back, I think both day. You and Craig said it before. People don't know what they don't know. Yeah, if they don't know what questions they should be asking, it's really tough to know the answers. If they haven't run a firm before, if they haven't run a business before, they're not quite sure what things are supposed to look like. So it's really imperative to bring in somebody who hasn't just done this once or twice but has worked with dozens of firms, hundreds of firms or companies, and has been able to see what our best practice is. And again, it's tough when we're heads down in our own business, which is part of why it's so important to surround yourself with experts who can help you in different areas.

Speaker 2: 20:13

So, daya, here's your moment to shine. Why don't you give our listeners and our viewers tips that you would suggest? If you know nothing about them right now, just give them tips that would probably put them on the right path to having success.

Speaker 4: 20:24

Having success. Well, success is not a one size fits all. So some of my clients have that idea that they want to have the big office and the corner office and want to be one of those one named titled firms as they sort of take over the world. Other of my clients want to have more time with their grandkids. Others want to be experts in a certain field and do some teaching and writing. So, finding your own definition of success and then finding the way to get there so that would be the first thing is deciding what success means to you, not someone else to you is deciding what success means to you, not someone else to you, and then finding out what it is that's been holding you back toward making that, making those steps forward, and that that could be needing a strategic advisor, needing someone to help you with sales or marketing or visioning or implementation, or hiring Like this could be something to do that. And I guess the third tip is really just start today, go for it.

Speaker 2: 21:30

Good tips. Good tips. I do find that most people have what Evan and I have kind of talked about paralysis by analysis. You can sit there and analyze things forever. I'm a data guy, I've done it, I know it, I've done it and end up to the point where my wife comes around and goes you're still on that Like, make a decision, make a decision, move on Right, and we all do it. I've done it and end up to the point where my wife comes around and goes you're still on that Like, make a decision, make a decision, move on Right, and we all do it. But the paralysis by analysis can really slow you down and make things a little bit more complicated For everyone listening.

Speaker 2: 21:57

I want them to know that they can watch this podcast and many others that we have already in the queue on smplaybookcom, or you can go see us or listen to us, I should say, on Apple Podcasts, spotify, amazon Music and more. And if you really, really want to see Evan's wonderful face on camera, you can always go to YouTube and see all the different things that we say and do when it comes to sales and marketing. Daya, thank you very much for being with us today.

Speaker 3: 22:27

And before we wrap up Daya, if people want to get a hold of you, what's the best way for people to find you?

Speaker 4: 22:34

TheSuccessPartnercom. You can also look up my name, daya Nafe. I am all over social media LinkedIn, tiktok for as long as we still have it, facebook Blue Sky.

Speaker 2: 22:43

Even so, I'm pretty easy to find if you're looking for me, which I hope you are Awesome. Thank you very much and listen, as we always say, actually better. Yet, as Daya says, success comes with her as a partner. Don't forget that. Don't forget that. And if you're looking for, Evan or myself.

Speaker 1: 23:16

We're always around. Give us a call, let us know, fill out the chat. Whatever you want to do, we'll be here. We'll talk to you guys next time. Bye-bye now. Keep exploring, experimenting and innovating, and watch as your business reaches unprecedented levels of success. Don't forget to subscribe to the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed on all major podcast platforms, and follow us on YouTube, facebook and LinkedIn for even more exclusive content. Until next time, keep hustling and keep winning.