Speaker 1: 0:19

Thank you. Meet Evan Poland, the president of Poland Performance Group. A master in sales coaching with over two decades of experience, evan is not just a consultant. He's a force in sales, focusing on mindset planning and skill development. He's also the co-author of Selling Professional Services, the Sandler Way. Joining him is Craig Andrews, partner and CEO of Beholder Agency. An expert in growth marketing With 20 years under his belt, craig blends marketing creativity with strategy to propel businesses forward, making Beholder Agency a leader in effective marketing solutions. Together, evan and Craig are here to share their wisdom on winning strategies, best practices and transformative insights that will fuel your growth. Get ready to revolutionize your sales and marketing approach right here on the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed.

Speaker 2: 1:11

And welcome to the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed. I'm Craig Andrews and this is my co-host, evan Polin the man, the myth, the legend. How are you doing today, evan?

Speaker 3: 1:20

I'm doing great today, Craig. How are you doing? I'm doing well. I'm doing well today, Craig. How are you doing?

Speaker 2: 1:23

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. So the guest today that we have is a perfect case study of being aggressive on the sales and the marketing side of the business, and before he comes in, I'll have him explain himself. I'm going to give you a quick background about what we do, just to set the stage. Craig Andrews Beholder Agency and we're a growth marketing agency. To sum it up, best what we do is we help clients get out of their way. When it comes to digital marketing, whether it be virtual marketing, all types of marketing, let's just put it that way Every client's a little bit different and we want to do is make customized, bespoke strategies and provide the solutions, based off of those strategies, to grow their business year after year. Evan, how about yourself? Why don't you give a little background?

Speaker 3: 2:04

Sure, I'm Evan Polin. With Polin Performance Group I provide sales coaching and consulting for small to small to mid-sized businesses, solo attorneys, small to mid-sized firms who are looking to proactively grow their practice, proactively grow their book of business. So typically I have clients that are at a certain level. They'd like to get to that next level, not quite sure what they need to do different Everything from that business development plan to how to make better use of their time in business development, how to limit the amount of free consulting they're doing. And then folks who are successful do great work with their clients, helping them with how to get more referrals and introductions from the people who know about the great work that they do. And for those who are new to the sales and marketing playbook Unleashed Craig really takes things from the marketing perspective. I take things from the sales perspective. Sometimes we share where things go hand in hand. Sometimes we may butt heads a little bit in terms of why marketing is screwing up the great things that our sales and business development are doing.

Speaker 3: 3:08

But yeah, so we just wanted to kind of level set for everybody who may be new to the program. And who we're going to bring to the stage now is Dan Rosenberg, who's managing partner of Rosenberg Perry Associates, who is an attorney, but an attorney who's a little bit out of the box, is pretty aggressive with his marketing, with his business development, I think brings some great insights to the table. So let's bring Dan to the table so he can share a little bit about himself, his background, and then we're going to have some really hard hitting questions that hopefully will leave our audience with some tips in terms of some best practices and maybe some things not to do when they're looking to build and grow a practice and build and grow a business. So, dan, welcome to the show, welcome Dan.

Speaker 4: 3:53

Craig Evan, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it so first, why don't you?

Speaker 2: 3:58

Go ahead, Evan. I'm sorry.

Speaker 3: 3:59

Why don't you give folks a little bit of background about what you do and how you got into doing what you're doing now?

Speaker 4: 4:06

So I'm a criminal defense attorney in New Jersey. I'm the managing partner of a firm. There's 10 attorneys in our firm, seven full time, and we do exclusively criminal defense on the state level. So felonies, misdemeanors, dui, we do do felony or excuse me federal matters, but I've been getting away from that. More recently and I'm a former county prosecutor and you know you ask, how did I get into this? Well, jokingly, you know, I tell people, I told the two of you before you know we started, that my father looked at me when I was young and said you know, I always figured you'd be in front of a judge. I just didn't think you'd be the one talking and that's partially because I just I was always, I don't know, I was always in trouble. Look, I think I was just kind of figuring things out as a young kid. But you know, I'd like to push the envelope. Yeah, you know. You know, by way of example, I had, I had a, you know, at the end of the year.

Speaker 4: 5:07

You had to take a final in high school, in my high school, and if you had a passing grade then it only counted for one eighth of your grade, but if you had a failing grade it was like a quarter. So I always made sure that my grade was a solid A, a solid B or, unfortunately, a solid C so I could go in there, fail that test and it would move. So I did that one time and the person in front of me, who's math, said what are you answering? I said I'm answering C for everything. And the proctor heard about it and they called and told my parents. My parents are like, what are you doing? I explained it to them and they're like, you know, the kid's got a point.

Speaker 4: 5:46

Um, you know, I I just kind of didn't accept things. I always kind of had an inquisitive eye and, um, I, I liked criminal law because it's kind of sexy. You know it, I get bored very easily. So I like the fact patterns and it sounds somewhat, um, silly, but I really enjoy helping people, even though sometimes the people I'm helping are, you know, less than model citizens. Everyone needs a defense and you know, I really enjoy doing it, really enjoy what I do, and advocating for people is a real passion of mine, for people is a real passion of mine.

Speaker 3: 6:23

That's awesome, and with that, can you tell us a little bit about the path in terms of how you started your firm?

Speaker 4: 6:29

Yeah, so went to law school and I had I clerked, so I had a Supreme Court, new Jersey Supreme Court clerkship. I then had a small stint in a firm in New York. Then I did criminal defense and then I went to the county prosecutor's office that in Burlington County, new Jersey and really enjoyed being a prosecutor and learning about the law, learning how to try cases, learning how to build a case and to prosecute a case, and then eventually I decided to leave. And one of the reasons I decided to leave was it sort of stunted my ambition. So what I mean by that is, you know, when I was in the prosecutor's office it's a government job and if I worked my ass off and did an amazing job and the person next to me just did the bare minimum but they got to the office before me, they were moving up the chain ahead of me and that's just the way that that was. And the role of prosecutor really wasn't, didn't fit me well, because prosecutors build houses brick by brick. They wear blue suits and red ties, they have the American flag on their lapel and it's and it's. It's not flashy, it's not charismatic, it is, you know, advocacy and there's absolutely a role for that and I think I was good at it. But that's not where, like, I shine and I like being charismatic and making these you know, I don't want to say wild arguments, but creative arguments and creative advocacy. So eventually I decided to leave the prosecutor's office.

Speaker 4: 8:24

I joined a reputable criminal defense attorney that I respected and I was with him for about four years and then eventually I went to him and I said, look, I want to continue to grow and there's a certain way I want to practice law and, you know, still a friend of mine to this day. But the gentleman said look, you know, if you're going to want to do this, it's better you go do it on your own than do it here, because it wasn't a fit for him. So I I separated from him in, I want to say, 2014. And then soon thereafter, I engaged a business coach who encouraged me to hire my first employee, and that was 2014. And now I've got 10 attorneys that I'm proud to work with and eight staff that I think are absolutely amazing people that do amazing work.

Speaker 4: 9:27

And you know, when I said I left that firm because I wanted to practice law, there's a way I wanted to practice. I have very high standards. I don't just accept what people tell me. I want it explained to me, and if someone doesn't explain it enough that I can't understand it, then I don't know that they necessarily understand it. So I wanted to have that level of competency for my clients. I also am very big on customer service, so when people are coming in for instance, a parent comes in with their, their son or daughter I almost always say you know, I appreciate your confidence and allowing me to take care of your son and we're going to take care of them.

Speaker 2: 10:11

Well, let me jump in real quick, dan. So the thing that's interesting about what you're saying here and that's part of what I want to touch upon in terms of the marketing side of things is, technically, what you were partially doing, which Evan and I are big fans of is you created a personal brand, right? So having that personal brand, can you talk a little bit about how that personal brand kind of helped drive you into what you are today?

Speaker 4: 10:36

Yeah, absolutely. You know, everyone's got. I jokingly say I didn't get to where I am because of my legal acumen, and what I mean by that is, you know, people don't necessarily come into my office or hire me or my firm because they say you know what, dan, you're the best lawyer that is out there. I think they do because they feel comfortable in my skill set, in the way I deal with them, in the way I interact with them, in my empathy. And look, I have to admit, guys, this is not something I've studied, this is something that is, I think, somewhat natural to me. I was always very sensitive growing up. I was always very mindful of the people around me. I think my father mindful of the people around me, I think my father, who is a retired veterinarian, but he was on television for a period of time. He had a radio show, he had some TV spots and commercial spots, and so I learned a lot of interactions from watching him. I used to go and work at his office, I saw how he interacted with people and I took a lot of that. But one of the things that I really strive for when I'm interacting with someone, especially a potential client, is what's bothering you. What's the concern? So, craig, if you came in and said, hey, I have this particular charge, I think emotional intelligence is critical. And before we even get into whatever we're talking about, if I see that you're like I can tell you're losing sleep. I can say look, before we get started, what's your biggest concern? And if you were to say, look, am I going to go to jail, depending on the charge, if I know you're not going to jail, I'd say, all right, look, let's stop right here. You're not going to jail. Period, full stop. All right, what else is bothering you? That's what's bothering you. Look, there are very few things that I can guarantee you, and I can't guarantee you that you're not going to jail. But I also can't guarantee that if you walk out there and buy a lottery ticket that you're not going to win $2.5 million, you and I both know you go buy that ticket. You're not going to win. Is it possible? Yeah, it's very possible, just like it's possible for you to go to jail. In this case. I can't give you a guarantee, but I'm very literal. So if I say it's not happening, that means there's no possibility. So I'm trying to give you a little bit of context.

Speaker 4: 12:58

Another thing I'll say is your list of things to worry about. Going to jail doesn't make your top thousand. You know, are we good? All right, let's, let's talk about what this case, about. What we, what we need to be concerned with. You know, craig, you don't need to be concerned with jail you need to be concerned with.

Speaker 4: 13:12

You know, is this going to have a license suspension? How's that going to affect your job? Or is this going to have a conviction where you're not going to go to jail, but how's that going to affect your current job or future jobs? This is what we need to be concerned with and, you know, drilling down on that early on helps me connect better with people and addressing their emotional needs, something I enjoy has been very beneficial for interacting with clients, maintaining client relationships, managing client relationships. So, to your point, the personal brand. My personal brand is, you know, caring, empathetic, intelligent and interested in making this and it sounds kind of weird making your process through the criminal justice system as pleasant and painless as possible.

Speaker 4: 14:05

And that includes following up with you know, touching base with you, following up, being anticipating your questions, reaching out to you and saying, hey, we don't have court till next week, but do you have any questions coming up? Or hey, I know that we're not going to go to court for another month, but if you have a question I don't want you sitting at home worrying about it Call the office. If I'm not available, set up a time, let's just talk it about.

Speaker 3: 14:31

Go ahead, dan. I think you've done a great job talking about what you're able to do to put people at ease, build a relationship once folks get in the door, once folks get in the door. How have you been successful getting folks in the door, getting your name out there, so that you're able to kind of have those kinds of conversations? What are some things that you've done, either from a marketing perspective, from a business development perspective, to get your name out there?

Speaker 4: 15:00

get yourself out there and to be able to have people come into the office. Yeah, so it's a, I would say, multi-pronged approach. So when I opened up my practice about 10 years ago, I knew that I did not have the reputation or the experience level in the private sector to generate enough work to sustain me, and so I was very mindful of having a website and a web presence, and I learned early on the value of SEO. So I've always been mindful of having a web presence, making sure that I had an active website, and I really spent a lot of time and resources making sure that that was a strong component to our marketing. But I would say that the most, the best referrals that I get, the best cases, the best clients come from referrals, and early on I've put a lot of value on thanking my referral sources. So when someone sends me a case, it does not matter if they hire me because the other person it could be I'm too expensive, it could be that I didn't call them back in time, it could be a whole number of things, but that person thought of me and thought enough of me to say you should call Dan. That's a thank you, whether it's a handwritten note or a phone call or an email or a gift. I want the person to know that I'm very appreciative and I also want to stand out. So one of the ways that I stand out is being appreciative, following up, saying thank you, handwritten notes. I am very much an old soul. I don't like forum emails, I don't like robocalls, I don't like all those touches. And while I understand that's the nature of the beast in the world we live in, um, I still think it's important to have those, those interactions, those phone calls. And when you send someone a thank you note that they're not expecting, and they open it up and they say man, you took the time to write this to me and I that was nice. Not only does that feel good for me, selfishly, but it leaves an impression with people.

Speaker 4: 17:06

Um, that and and really cultivating relationships with um, with clients, letting them know uh, you know, I don't say, hey, send me work. Um, hey, think of me for this. I say, look, if you have a problem, you, you have a lawyer, you know, and I don't care what it is. You have a bankruptcy problem? Call me. I don't do bankruptcy, but I know a lot of attorneys. So if you call me and say I have a bankruptcy issue, I have a real estate issue, I have a divorce issue. I know people who do all that stuff. So you know, craig, someone calls me and says you know, I'm in the construction business, I have people call me for everything. I don't care what it is and I take the time to say, oh, all right. So, craig, you have this issue. Ok, not a problem, just let me get a little bit of information. Ok, it's a, it's an employment issue.

Speaker 4: 18:19

It's a friend of yours. What state is it in? Ok, do they have a preference? Working with a man or a woman? No preference? Ok, I just want to make sure I'm giving you a good referral and so you know you are. The person that's referring over feels that appreciation, feels the love, and also, if you call me back and say, hey, you know, you gave me that person's number, they never called me. That's a big deal to me because that happened to me very early on and so I'll reach out to the person and find out what's going on. But if that happens, I'm in all likelihood not going to be set in that same type of work over. Um, or I can say craig, I want you to call this person. Look, they're a very good attorney, not the best at returning phone calls. If they don't get back to you, let me know. Or if it's not a good fit, you call me back and let me know.

Speaker 3: 19:09

Yeah, that's something that I drill into my clients all the time. If someone gives you a referral, you need to call that person that you referred to within two business days. You need to get back to the referral source, as you said. Thank them regardless of what happened, but thank them for thinking of you and I I I take the personal blame. If I got referred and it was the wrong kind of person, the wrong kind of thing, that's on me. I probably didn't do a good enough job educating my referral source Sure On what a good referral and I'm never going to blame them for that. Um so again, it sounds like you're doing a lot, a lot of the right things, and a lot of attorneys don't realize that the best source of business for most attorneys are referrals from other attorneys.

Speaker 4: 19:51

So the last thing that I do that I think really sets me and my firm apart is gifting. I'm very big on gifting, so, like you know, craig, let's say that I know that you're a big Sixers fan.

Speaker 3: 20:07

I am All right, so you refer me a case, not this year.

Speaker 4: 20:13

Yeah, they had a team meeting.

Speaker 2: 20:15

They're good.

Speaker 4: 20:17

But you know, let's say that Craig refers me and Craig's not expecting anything in return. He just wants his person to get good representation, a good person, whatever the case might be. Well, you know, and it's not a quid pro quo, it's not like are you sending me a case? I send you a gift. But I know that Craig's thinking of me and so I'm thinking of Craig.

Speaker 4: 20:36

So when I see something like a Sixers jersey, like I may get an Embiid jersey or a Maxi jersey or something like that, and you know, wrap it up in a lavish box with some nice wrapping paper and things like that, Craig is not expecting it. All of a sudden, something comes to his door and I have something who helps me with this. So sometimes they knock on the door. It's hand delivered and you open up. I'm not expecting this and it's a surprise. It's an experience, and people are not only appreciative, but not for nothing. They remember that, they remember the thoughtfulness, they remember the experience. Their wife, their spouse, their girlfriend, they're talking. That's the guy with the gifts, right, yeah, yeah. So that's been really instrumental, I think.

Speaker 3: 21:22

And that's awesome, because these days people rely so much on the phones and just sending a text, sending an email, something that's not personal at all, doesn't really take a whole lot of thought. So, again, the fact that you do that, I'm sure, makes you stand out Absolutely.

Speaker 4: 21:38

Yeah, as a matter of fact, let me see.

Speaker 3: 21:41

He's going to present a gift to me. I know it.

Speaker 2: 21:43

I know he is, I know he is. I thought I had it. I know he is, I know he is.

Speaker 4: 21:48

I thought I had something. But like, I have a like, if I was going to send you a letter, I don't have it in front of me. But like, let's say, you know, evan, I'm sending you a thank you letter or I'm sending you a check. Let's say you're an attorney and I can send you a generation fee. Well, you know, you get that envelope, you know in the mail, you open up and go, oh, this is nice, this is a check. Well, what if you, instead of getting that check, you got a box that's hand delivered, that you know it's got this big ribbon on it, it's got your name on a card and a handwritten note? You open it up and the only thing in there is an envelope. And it's this experience. You open up and there's a check inside and all this time and effort and energy went into it. I think it leaves an impression and I love when people reach out to me like, hey, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 22:39

Hey, I love who does your wrapping? So a really important question.

Speaker 4: 22:51

Do you have a special pen that you use to? Write the note or write out the check. Yeah, so I'm a little quirky. Yes, I have special stationery, I have pens, I have multiple pens, I have different color envelopes, I have a wax sealer, so I seal my envelopes with wax. I have a little stamp that goes on it.

Speaker 3: 23:09

I had a sneaking suspicion.

Speaker 2: 23:13

Yep, you're spot on. I want to make sure that none of this gets overlooked. I'm going to do a quick little summary here in terms of things I've heard One, he's an old soul. Two, all the little details in terms of relationship and he's a service guy right, those type of things. From a marketing perspective, evan, when you and I have spoken about it, we've talked about what are things that can make you stand out, and it's always the simple. Simple always wins in marketing. I'm going to let you expand a little bit, evan, in terms of the sales side, but the networking, the making sure you keep the relationship going. What other things, evan, did you hear from him in terms of what he was saying there?

Speaker 3: 23:49

So the other thing that I heard is one of the core tenets that I know to be true People like to work with people that they like.

Speaker 3: 24:00

People like to work with people like themselves and people that we all heard the golden rule when we were in kindergarten and in school people want to be treated the way that we want to be treated.

Speaker 3: 24:09

That's not actually the case when we're in a client facing business. People want to be treated the way they want to be treated. Everybody wants to be treated a little bit different and again it sounds like Dan really tunes in, has the empathy, wants to understand what people's biggest concerns are. And again, that's something that a lot, for a lot of people, takes them a very, very long time to realize that it's not about me, it's about my client and it's about what makes them comfortable. And again, it sounds like that's something that you do really naturally and something that I think is a good lesson for anybody who is working with people, anybody who is in a service type of profession, that we really need to connect and make our clients comfortable, for them to want to work with us and do business with us and, quite frankly, then feel comfortable enough to take your legal advice, as you're walking them through what they should be doing.

Speaker 2: 25:02

Especially when it's something that's potentially emotional from a defense perspective. And now the trust is even doubled down stronger because of these little details, just small details. I'm sure this is not something that's breaking Dan's bank, but it's something that people remember all the time. Think about it, and I know this is not quite the level that you're doing it, but think about we all travel and we go to a hotel and you know, especially in the islands I like the islands and you got that little towel like a good, looks like, looks like a goose, and you go oh, that's cool, that's nice, and I don't forget it and that's why I bring it up in this conversation. Those are little touches in a marketing perspective.

Speaker 2: 25:39

And the two more things I have to bring up to Dan's points here One, he talked about technically, an experiential marketing process which from an everyday small business perspective is really hard to do, and he's kind of mastered it in that perspective, because now every experience you went through with Dan has now shown itself full circle. And two, he thinks marketing is better than sales. Anyway, that was my final poll right there. How about that, evan? Take that, I can see the first poll.

Speaker 2: 26:15

So I know we got to wrap up here a little bit, but, dan, let the people know how they can reach you if they want to reach out to you.

Speaker 4: 26:24

Rosenbergperrycom or just Google Daniel M Rosenberg. There's only a couple of us. I think there's a comedian, a producer and me. I really appreciate you allowing me to be on here. If anyone has any questions about New Jersey, criminal matters, legal defense, what I like to say is sex, drugs, guns and alcohol. We deal with all that stuff, so we're a good time.

Speaker 3: 26:51

That was just Dan's last weekend.

Speaker 2: 26:53

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:55

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 26:57

If there's a party, there's generally a couple RPA attorneys hanging out.

Speaker 2: 27:05

So, Evan, do you have any final?

Speaker 3: 27:07

words there. So, dan dan, I just want to thank you again for being a great guest on the podcast um for every everybody listening. Go to our youtube channel sales and marketing playbook unleashed um. You can hear us on apple spot any of the main places where you listen to your podcast. Also, check us out on LinkedIn. You'll see clips of this and previous shows and please feel free to like, subscribe, leave comments, questions. We will respond. And, craig, why don't you take us out?

Speaker 2: 27:43

Awesome Everything Evan said. Everybody have a great day. It was great talking to you.

Speaker 1: 27:53

Thank you for joining us on this exhilarating journey through the world of sales and marketing. Remember, the playbook is in your hands and the possibilities are limitless. Keep exploring, experimenting and innovating, and watch as your business reaches unprecedented levels of success. Don't forget to subscribe to the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed on all major podcast platforms and follow us on YouTube, Facebook and LinkedIn for even more exclusive content. Until next time, keep hustling and keep winning.