Speaker 1: 0:19

Thank you. Meet Evan Polin, the president of Polin Performance Group. A master in sales coaching with over two decades of experience, evan is not just a consultant. He's a force in sales, focusing on mindset, planning and skill development. He's also the co-author of Selling Professional Services, the Sandler Way. Joining him is Craig Andrews, partner and CEO of Beholder Agency. An expert in growth marketing With 20 years under his belt, craig blends marketing creativity with strategy to propel businesses forward, making Beholder Agency a leader in effective marketing solutions. Together, evan and Craig are here to share their wisdom on winning strategies, best practices and transformative insights that will fuel your growth. Get ready to revolutionize your sales and marketing approach right here on the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed.

Speaker 2: 1:11

And welcome to the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed. I'm Craig Andrews and my co-host, Evan Poland, sales extraordinaire. He likes it when I compliment him, so I'm going to give him one today. Just one, just one it's going to be a long episode. So, Evan, why don't you tell everybody who you are and what you do?

Speaker 3: 1:31

Sure, I am. For those who haven't listened before, my name is Evan Poland, I am president of Poland Performance Group and I have a sales coaching and consulting firm helping professionals who are looking to proactively grow their business, whether it's managing partner of a law firm, small to mid-sized business owner who wants to make sure that they're doing a good job, getting in front of more of their ideal kinds of prospects, folks who are looking to shorten that time from meeting their prospect for the first time to qualifying or disqualifying the opportunity. And folks who do great work and just want to get more referrals, introductions from the people who do, who they know well, um, so uh, craig, why don't you introduce yourself everyone?

Speaker 2: 2:17

awesome. So craig andrews from beholder agency and we're a growth marketing agency. We help clients navigate digital marketing and all aspects of it by using an integrated marketing approach, making sure they're not just using one marketing channel to grow your business, but you're using several of them, and we help with different strategies in that. So today, today, we have a guest.

Speaker 3: 2:41

Dan. So I am very excited to, in a moment, bring to the stage our guest. Our guest today is Dan Pasternak, who is the managing shareholder and litigation partner for Pasternak Appel. Craig and I belong to a professional association called Provisors and had the privilege of meeting Dan over the last couple of months and thought that Dan would bring a great perspective to the podcast. So welcome Dan.

Speaker 2: 3:08

Welcome Dan.

Speaker 4: 3:09

Thank you, I appreciate you having me today.

Speaker 2: 3:12

So, dan, tell us a little about yourself and your company.

Speaker 4: 3:17

So my name is Dan Pasternak. I'm the managing shareholder of a law firm in South Jersey, Poster and Acapella. We're a nine lawyer firm with basically four practice areas estate planning and administration, and probate litigation being one, anything to do with real estate being two. Also, we do a fair amount of dispute resolution and our general counsel to a fair number of mid and small sized businesses. I tell people to call me when they have a business dispute that they need resolved, and hopefully before litigation, and also they can call me when someone they know or they have purchased a property real estate and found unexpected and undisclosed significant problems Awesome.

Speaker 3: 4:16

Evan, do you want to answer?

Speaker 2: 4:17

the first question Go ahead.

Speaker 3: 4:18

Sure, and Dan, we're excited to hear your perspective. Both Craig and I work with a lot of professionals a lot of attorneys, professional service firms and a lot of times people wouldn't ordinarily put together sales and marketing with an attorney. But, as you know very well, if you want to have your own firm, if you want to make partner, you really need to do a good job of kind of getting out there, marketing yourself and being able to grow a practice. So I thought maybe we'd start at the beginning and wanted to ask you at what point in your career did you learn that having to market yourself, having to bring in business, was actually part of what you were going to need to do to be successful, and how did you start to get involved in that?

Speaker 4: 5:01

Well, it's actually a pretty big question you pose, evan, quite frankly, because a lot of it depends on what you, as a lawyer or other professional, what you want to do with your career. So you know, there's a lot of lawyers whose success does not depend on sales and marketing because they simply want to practice law and service clients. But if you are, like me, an entrepreneur or wish to have a small or medium-sized firm, that you want to be successful as a professional, I hate to put it bluntly but you better get over yourself because sales and marketing is pretty important. And you know, quite frankly, in my world and a lot of professional worlds doctors, et cetera we don't.

Speaker 4: 5:54

One, we're not taught sales and marketing in law school. It's not part of the curriculum. I think that's a serious problem with schools in general. And two, with larger firms. You're not necessarily at the beginning of your career. That's not emphasized. As you begin to progress, there's an expectation that you become an originator. So whether or not you're going to own a firm or be a partner in a firm, to be successful you have to be an originator of business, and that all comes back to sales and marketing.

Speaker 2: 6:31

So I guess a question I have for you is tell me about some of the bumpy roads that you had from a marketing perspective. I'll leave I'll leave Evan for the sales stuff, but some of the marketing perspective. When you were growing your business, what were some of the the, the potholes in the road that you experienced?

Speaker 4: 6:48

So one of the things I'll say that I know both of you agree with and I know that Evan focuses on in the services he offers is mindset and also making the distinction between sales and marketing, because those are two different things. Wow, preach, and they're, they're, they are, I mean. So, craig, your question is really more oriented toward marketing. Um, you know, and you know, does your business or firm have a plan? Um, are there Milestones in that plan to achieve your ultimate goals? You know, do you have a vision? Are you able to?

Speaker 4: 7:27

You know, there's a book that I typically recommend in providing services to businesses, called who, not how? Are you the one who should be doing the marketing? For example, should you be relying upon inside people or outside vendors? So that's a large part of in both sales and marketing. Specific as to marketing, you know, are you going to hand people materials that help explain what services you provide? Being one example, sales is a whole different ballgame. Sales is, you know, picking up the phone or making sure people are comfortable, and I know I'm singing to the choir here a little bit.

Speaker 2: 8:14

So we got to take Dan with us everywhere we go.

Speaker 3: 8:18

Yeah and Dan, I think something that may be good for people who may be listening, who may be thinking about starting their own firm, who have started their own firm what are some of the things from the sales and business development side that you did, where you found success, and maybe what are some of the things that you tried or some of the challenges that you ran into as you really started to get into growing a practice, growing your own book. But you know, best practice is things to avoid.

Speaker 4: 8:50

Yeah. So another somewhat broad question from this perspective what's your target audience? How are you attracting that target audience? And again, to sort of come back to, are you the one to do it? So, by way of example, one suggestion that I'm pretty sure you both recommend is an activity log. Take some time to write down, for a significant period of time, what you do with your time. What's the same. Prioritize your schedule rather than prior. No, schedule your priorities rather than prioritize your schedule.

Speaker 4: 9:31

If you, for example, as a lawyer, make a higher amount of money per hour doing something, you should continue to do that something. Not $100 an hour, $10 an hour type tasks, and many of those fall in the administration of sales and marketing. And then the other part of it is you're just, quite frankly, probably not as good as someone who's trained and who knows how to do it, someone who's trained and who knows how to do it. Who oversees it? Who gathers the data? Who analyzes how the data is achieving your ROI? So, from a business person's perspective, are your salespeople and are your marketing people utilizing your investment well? And again, I know that's something that you both are very successful in demonstrating to your clients.

Speaker 3: 10:25

Yeah, and I just want to emphasize two things that you just said. I think there are two very good points and they shouldn't get lost. One not everybody is cut out for sales and marketing. I jokingly say and used to jokingly say with my former partner some people are good with everyone but people, former partner, some people are good with everyone but people, uh, and there are some people who should be back in an office billing 18 to 2200 hours having very little interaction with clients, because that's not really their strength and that's not their best and highest use. The other thing that you mentioned that is something that I've done for the last 20 plus years, something I recommend for all of my clients.

Speaker 3: 11:04

Every single piece of business that has come in, everything that's in my pipeline, I've gone back and identified where it came from. So if it was networking, where was I networking? If it was a referral, who did the referral come from and how did I meet the person who gave me the referral? If it was marketing, can I identify? Um, you know which marketing program it was, which campaign it was?

Speaker 3: 11:29

Because the more I can and again Craig likes to say day to day, to day all the time the more I can go back and look and see what's working. There's a better chance that I can go and replicate that and work smart rather than just working really, really hard. And if there are things that I invested money in, I invested time in, didn't much of an ROI, well, let me cut those things out and do it as quickly as makes sense so that I can really make sure. Dan, again, going back to your point, looking at where am I the most valuable? What's making me the most money? Again, which of my services are the higher margin services? To figure out how I can do more around that and build my business plan around that.

Speaker 2: 12:13

And I think that, from my perspective, in what you mentioned there, dan, the thing to keep in mind is not only, to your point, stay with the people who are who are concentrated on doing it, but I think the other part of it is is to keep in mind how important it is to make sure that you're reading the data and, like Devin said, you're reading the data in a. Like Devin said, you're reading the data in a position and reading it honestly, because sometimes we all have favorite children, in the sense that this was my favorite idea. I really liked how I looked in that video, I really liked what I wrote in that piece and it really doesn't work. So you really need that objective view to understand it, especially in a creative industry that lawyers are in. I mean, in other lawyers that I've worked with in the past I mean, it's so competitive. It's so competitive. How do you differentiate yourself in a pool full of other lawyers? That's what I'm interested in hearing from you.

Speaker 4: 13:08

Yeah, it's hard, quite frankly. I'll give you there's a few things to touch on there, so I'll give you some examples. I'll come back to what you just said, craig, about falling in love with your ideas. So this is a pretty expensive lesson that I learned and I hung on to it longer than I should have. So I won't go into the specific practice area, but there was a practice area that was near and dear to my heart.

Speaker 4: 13:35

I won't go into the specific practice area, but there was a practice area that was near and dear to my heart and I actually did a couple of what's the phrase? Focus groups and, you know, designed them in a way that I invited the you know, specific people that I knew were knowledgeable about those areas. They were asked different questions. We collated the information and I created a campaign and a platform in order to attract and service that business. Well, it wasn't successful. I mean, I don't know how else to say it, other than I devoted a certain amount of money not only to marketing but to the people to service it, and I hung on too long, uh, and we lost money for a while. Well, we didn't actually lose money, we didn't make much. Let's put it that way yeah, and so I to.

Speaker 4: 14:24

To your point, craig.

Speaker 4: 14:25

I wasn't really looking at that objectively yeah and I really needed someone to to step in who wasn't as emotionally attached to it. Now, another example would be real estate, for example, residential real estate in a law firm. So there's not a lot of margin there. But we don't represent people to help them buy and sell houses to make money. We represent people that help and help them buy, sell houses and leases and whatever to establish relationships, because those relationships then vault into other businesses. So the four practice areas that I mentioned we are built on four practice areas that talk to each other. So it doesn't necessarily matter how you come to us in those practice areas. Every practice area estate planning, business, real estate, dispute resolution you're going to have as a business owner, you're likely to have those similar problems. So that when we meet you service, you make you happy in one area, we become your law firm and you come back to us for others. So yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 3: 15:42

So in the den I was going to say, when I work with firms that have multiple practice areas, the quickest, easiest way to grow is through cross-selling from practice group to practice group to practice group. Bring one client in and again, you're not giving them services that they don't need. They need all of these services. But if they can, one company, one individual can get two or three services from one firm versus going out to two or three different firms. It's typically going to be more cost-effective for the client. They're going to have somebody who can really be a quarterback and kind of oversee everything and it's going to be a lot more profitable for the firm because it is way easier doing more work for one client and way cheaper to do that than it is to go out and find four different clients to do the same amount of work yeah, and to come full circle to your original question, you know how long did it take me to learn how much sales and marketing and how critical it was to the growth of professional business?

Speaker 4: 16:39

I'd say about 20 years.

Speaker 3: 16:42

So you were a quicker learner than most attorneys.

Speaker 4: 16:46

Yes, I learned in 20 years. I didn't implement it for a while. Yeah, I'm in year 38.

Speaker 3: 16:50

So well, that's why they call it the practice of law, right where we keep working at it yes, yeah, well, you know.

Speaker 4: 16:59

And to kind of come back to my set, um, I don't currently, because I'm just at a different stage, not only in my career but my life. I actually don't describe myself as a lawyer most of the time anymore. I describe myself as the owner of a business that provides legal services.

Speaker 2: 17:19

That's a different twist, absolutely, absolutely. And the thing I want to kind of step back just a hair A lot of times when, in the way you described it, I try to look at when I'm work servicing clients, I try to look at how I can extend the relationships that the clients have with their client base. If I can get them to be a reoccurring on a regular basis, it makes me look good from a marketing perspective. So it was good to hear in terms of you know how you kind of centralized yourself in that that pool of of people looking for your service and technically, if you do a good job and you have a good performance, it's a no-brainer right. Logically, it just makes so much sense that why would I switch it up and have to relearn something totally different with someone else when I've already built a relationship on the easy stuff? I think Evan and I talk about it all the time Get the easy stuff done right and the hard stuff just takes care of itself.

Speaker 4: 18:15

And here's the other aspect of it. People come to me as a lawyer, and I'll use you two as an example. People come to me as a lawyer, but if they need sales and marketing, I'm not servicing them, I'm sending them to you guys. So it's not only internally that you cross market, as Evan suggested, but you rely upon and because the three of us are part of a group that relies on each other and we consider-.

Speaker 3: 18:43

You can mention the name of the group. It's okay. We'll get them to be a paid sponsor at some point.

Speaker 4: 18:48

Okay, no problem, since we're all part of Provisors and the underlying mission of that is know, like trust, refer we get to know each other. I refer as many people out, not only to other lawyers who don't do what I do, but to other service providers who, just because people know me, trust me and they know that I'm going to refer them to someone that's going to provide good service, like youtube yeah, I one of one of the things that I say all the time.

Speaker 3: 19:21

I want my clients coming to me for anything, just because I don't do it again between provisors, between being in the business community for the last 25 years, I probably know one or two or three people that could help them with whatever their issue is right, but if I am always their go-to person, they are never going to leave me.

Speaker 3: 19:42

I am going to be that trusted partner, that strategic advisor for my client, and I just you know, using provisors an example had a business owner who's getting ready to give the business to the second generation wanted some help, so I was able to set him up and have him talk to two or three different folks who specialize just in that. He was grateful and very happy that I was able to put him in touch with those resources. Those resources were happy that I was able to put them in front of a good business owner. And that's really what it's all about, both in terms of doing the right thing for your client, but it also really, quite frankly, makes it easier to grow your business if you are that go-to person for your client to come to for anything.

Speaker 4: 20:23

Yeah, we're going to change provisors to I got a guy or I got a guy.

Speaker 3: 20:29

Dan, I don't know how much time you spent in the New York groups, but that's exactly how they say it.

Speaker 4: 20:38

That's funny. Well, you know, I'm a.

Speaker 2: 20:40

South Korean. So let's do this. What we usually do in our show towards the end of it is we do what I call a shotgun round. Give us three or four things that you would advise people who are in your position or going to be in your position, or trying to be entrepreneurial. What advice would you give them? Something different than you told us? I'm going to put a little hook on you there. Wow.

Speaker 4: 21:02

I don't know that's a tough question. So you want me to say tell me exactly what you want me to. Let me revisit that question. Tell me exactly what you want me to let me?

Speaker 3: 21:18

let me revisit that question. Okay, I would say either two or three tips that you would give someone in the industry in terms of things that may help them to be successful, or one or two lessons that you learned and things that people should absolutely not do if they're looking to be successful in sales and marketing and either growing their individual practice or growing, growing or starting a firm yeah.

Speaker 4: 21:40

So, uh, educate yourself, I think, you know. I mean, I think some of these themes have come from what we've already discussed. But educating yourself, delegating, I think, is pretty critical. Um, you know, when I, when I think things through a little bit, um, sometimes I need to think about what I want to achieve, and it's like the three of us are doers, yeah, and it's hard to step away from the how. So, as soon as you think of a problem, then you start thinking about how to resolve it. But you've got to get down what you want to be at the end first. Until you know what the end of the road is, you can't figure the rest of that out.

Speaker 4: 22:19

You know I sort of follow a must-have, can-have one. So there's certain when I'm thinking about things, it's what must I do, or must have someone do to achieve this goal? And then it kind of expands as the can Now I can do some things that I might not otherwise have done. And then it kind of expands as to can Now I can do some things that I might not otherwise have done. And then it becomes fun, then it becomes, oh, now I can do what I want. And just to put it back in the terms of a business. I must make enough money to pay the electric and the rent and my employees. I can begin to add people along the way. I can become more charitable. I can do those sort of things. Then we get to the one. I'm successful enough that I can take a week, two week vacation.

Speaker 4: 23:07

I know somebody who took their first vacation in 15 years because they're now empty nesters and not, that's right Orange orange not something I advocate, by the way big believer in multiple vacations a year so there is, there is one byline, uh, or one philosophy that says you are not successful unless you can walk away from your business for one month and have it run as well as it would if you were there. Get over your ego, ego you got to set your ego aside. That's a huge thing of being a business owner and then some business owners I work with.

Speaker 3: 23:44

The business runs better when they're gone yeah, that's true too.

Speaker 4: 23:49

You're not speaking personally, are you there? No, okay.

Speaker 2: 23:55

I don't know, maybe, maybe. Well, listen, you have been great today, dan. I appreciate it. Evan, do you have any parting words before we do our sign off?

Speaker 3: 24:05

Actually, before we sign off, Dan, would you like to share with people how they can get in touch with you?

Speaker 4: 24:11

Oh sure, I appreciate that. So my office number is 856-642-6445. I'd appreciate a call. Like I said in the beginning, if you have a business dispute that needs to be resolved or you know someone who's purchased a piece of real estate with unexpected and unanticipated undisclosed issues, you can also reach me at danppasternockappelcom.

Speaker 3: 24:40

Okay great. So, dan, again thanks a lot for coming on and for our audience. I look forward to upcoming episodes with other guests talking about sales and marketing and how it's impacted their business and best practices, as well as look for a year-end, goal-setting podcast to come up over the next couple of weeks.

Speaker 2: 25:03

And, with that being said, please, if you have a second and you go to our YouTube channel, there's a little bell there. Hit that bell, it'll give you notifications that our new episode is up, and you should be looking for this podcast with Dan on it, because he had a lot of gems there that you guys should be taking notes on and contact Dan. In addition, you can listen to our podcast. If you don't like looking at my beautiful face and Evan's beautiful face and Dan's beautiful face, you can just listen to us because you can hear the good details in there and visit us on Apple Podcasts, spotify and many of the other popular platforms. Again, evan Polin, craig Andrews, dan Pasternak, we will talk to you again on the next time around. Enjoy your day. From the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed.

Speaker 1: 26:00

Thank you for joining us on this exhilarating journey through the world of sales and marketing. Remember, the playbook is in your hands and the possibilities are limitless. Keep exploring, experimenting and innovating, and watch as your business reaches unprecedented levels of success. Don't forget to subscribe to the Sales and marketing playbook unleashed on all major podcast platforms and follow us on YouTube, facebook and LinkedIn for even more exclusive content. Until next time, keep hustling and keep winning.