Speaker 1: 0:20

Thank you. Meet Evan Polin, the president of Polin Performance Group. A master in sales coaching with over two decades of experience, evan is not just a consultant. He's a force in sales, focusing on mindset, planning and skill development. He's also the co-author of Selling Professional Services, the Sandler Way. Joining him is Craig Andrews, partner and CEO of Beholder Agency. An expert in growth marketing With 20 years under his belt, craig blends marketing creativity with strategy to propel businesses forward, making Beholder Agency a leader in effective marketing solutions. Together, evan and Craig are here to share their wisdom on winning strategies, best practices and transformative insights that will fuel your growth. Get ready to revolutionize your sales and marketing approach right here on the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed.

Speaker 2: 1:11

And welcome to the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed. I'm Craig Andrews and there is Evan Pollitt, the sales mastermind. So, Evan, today, the buzzword today is, just like our intro, winning strategies.

Speaker 3: 1:28

Right, Today's winning strategies winning strategies and what firms need to do and what companies need to do to ensure that they're going to be successful.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Absolutely, absolutely. So just to begin, just to make sure again, everyone who's listening and watching understands the difference between me and Evan and our guest Evan, why don't you go ahead? I'll go ahead, I'll go. This time I'm going to be selfish. I'm Craig Andrews, partner at Beholder Agency, and we are a growth marketing agency and we help clients navigate digital marketing websites, social media, the whole nine yards, and we tend to help clients who said I have a website, I have marketing that's not really working and I need it to be better. So we come up with different strategies and solutions, services that'll help bring them to the next level and grow their business year after year. That's my pitch. How did I do? Sales guy.

Speaker 3: 2:23

So not bad. We still, you know, 16, 17 years in and we're getting close. They're getting closer, I got a little bit closer.

Speaker 3: 2:30

It's about the growth every day so and what I do is really, you know when, when firms and companies are working with craig and they're getting all kinds of leads in, when those companies can't close a door, let alone a sale, that's typically where I come in.

Speaker 3: 2:48

So I really help small to mid-sized firms that are looking to proactively grow their business.

Speaker 3: 2:53

So I'm not generating leads, I'm not doing digital marketing, seo that's Craig and Beholder and that's their expertise.

Speaker 3: 3:01

But the kinds of challenges my clients have is they're not getting in front of enough of their ideal kinds of clients. So they're out there going to networking events, trade shows, professional associations and just not getting in front of decision makers of the kinds of clients or firms they want to work with. They are meeting with potential clients, they're having first meetings and the sales cycle is just way longer than it should be. They end up providing a lot of free consulting and have a lot of first meetings that go well, but not enough of those are converting into new business or it's taking way longer than it should, and a lot of my clients and folks that I help have been in business for a long time have clients that are raving fans but, for whatever reason, they're not getting as many referrals, introductions, as they know they should be getting, and they're just not quite sure why. And that's where I come in to help them with systems process, everything from mindset to activity to technique, to make sure that they're generating enough business.

Speaker 2: 3:57

Awesome, awesome. So the buzzword that I started with was winning strategies, right? So the guest that we have today is going to talk about strategies and he's going to kind of be the bridge between us, right? So let me introduce John DePrince, but before I do that, I'm going to give you his bio. So ready, john DePrince is a certified focal point business and executive coach, specializing in one on one coaching for managing partners of small to medium sized law firms and accounting firms. He also provides group coaching for associate attorneys and practice group leaders, focusing on creating a more rewarding and less stressful work environment. We all need that for sure. Before joining Focal Point, john spent seven years at Offit Kerman as a regional director of operations, where he set goals, measured KPIs which is one of our buzzwords, right, absolutely. And coached attorneys. Welcome to the stage, john DePrince. John, how are you today?

Speaker 4: 4:59

I'm doing well. Thanks, Craig and Evan. Nice to see you again. I'm really excited you invited me to participate in this podcast.

Speaker 3: 5:08

And John, we're really excited to have you. I know that you're going to have a lot of valuable insights for our listeners, so we really appreciate you coming on. And I guess let's kind of start at the beginning. What is a business leadership coach? What are some of the kinds of challenges that you help firms with, and how is some of the ways that you help them?

Speaker 4: 5:28

So good question. So a business leadership coach and specifically in legal, they work closely with the managing partner of a law firm or a practice group leader really help them understand what is important, what they should focus on, the high value tasks. And when you work with a managing partner of a law firm or a practice group leader, what I do is I help them gain awareness, take action and then hold them accountable, really focus on what's important so that they can do what they love to do, and that's practice law. Give them time back in their day to practice law.

Speaker 3: 6:14

So that's awesome and, john, I know with your experience you've worked with firms of all different kinds of sizes. What are some of the challenges that you've seen with midsize and larger firms, and how does that differ from some of the challenges that some of those smaller firms have?

Speaker 4: 6:29

So a larger firm. When you're talking about growing the business, there's a lot of different people that you interact with on a daily basis. So when I worked at the previous firm, they had somebody in sales, they had somebody in business development. There was also somebody in recruiting that would bring in that they thought were the right people to support the growth. It was up to me to put all that together. So you can think about it, I was managing a lot of different personalities on a daily basis, interacting with every level of the firm. When you talk about smaller firms that I'm working with now, they don't have all those people to do all the different tasks. So what happens is the managing partner wears so many different hats that they focus on just working in the firm instead of on the firm. What I do is I help them get time back in their day so that they can focus on practicing law, and then I connect all the dots. I help them, and what I do is I help them push, delegate, lower value tasks.

Speaker 2: 7:45

So the question I would have for you in terms of that? You know sometimes the marketing kind of gets lost in there when you're talking a lot about business development, right? So in terms of the marketing side of things, where do you come into play? I know that you talk about doing a lot of seminars and things like that to kind of educate them on what they need. Also, touch upon there when we talk about KPIs. That's a big thing for me, right, kpis. I know it's a big thing for Evan, but the KPIs and how it applies, tell me a little bit about that from your perspective.

Speaker 4: 8:17

So I'll address the first part about the marketing. So when I worked at a law firm in the past a medium-sized firm what usually happened was you would see a big originator but they were also billing a lot of hours. So what I would do is I would put together a justification to hire somebody to support their work because they were very well known, and what they would do is they would now have time to originate and bring more business in. So when we did that, we connected them with marketing, with business development, to help them really put together a full-blown marketing plan. So the other thing that I did was when I worked with the attorneys, as you said, kpis were key. So it was all about origination how much business are you bringing into the firm and how many other attorneys are you keeping busy? The other key performance indicator that I measured was billable hours.

Speaker 4: 9:17

In the beginning of the year Did we work together and set a goal of how many billable hours you were going to complete on an annual basis? And if you weren't hitting your goals, I would figure out like why what's going on, especially production attorneys. I would figure out like why what's going on, especially production attorneys. They were real, real busy and their clients, as I used to say, were the attorneys that were sending them work. So they needed to do a good job of communicating with attorneys, sending them work so they can keep busy, so they can learn, so they can grow, so they can learn, so they can grow.

Speaker 4: 9:50

So, when we're talking about production hours, talking about billable hours per day per attorney which was a huge KPI and I'm happy to say that my region was the only region that hit that benchmark of six billable hours per day per attorney Reason being is because I looked at the results on a regular basis and if I see, if I saw people that were not hitting their goals, I made the connections. But not only did I make the connections, I kind of fostered an environment where they would communicate, work well together and everybody would be on the same page of meeting expectations. So it was all about people working together to support the growth.

Speaker 3: 10:33

So, and John, I just want to go back because I think this is a good number for people to have and go back to. So the goal at your firm was six billable hours per day.

Speaker 4: 10:42

Six billable hours per day per attorney and, yes, my region did hit that. The only region to hit that.

Speaker 3: 10:53

Joe, that's awesome, that's fantastic and you know talks to the kind of job that you did. Something else that you know Craig and I discuss on a regular basis and don't know. You know if you've seen this happen, but have you ever seen where there is a disconnect between the marketing of the firm, between what they're doing on a business development, and then what the attorneys are trying to do day to day? And if so, what kinds of things were done to kind of bridge the gap if there was a disconnect?

Speaker 4: 11:21

So when there was a disconnect, a lot of it had to do with business development and sales, supporting a good number of attorneys in a region, so they were almost stretched thin. And then at times, you would have attorneys that were like well, I'm an attorney practicing law, my clients are important, which is totally understandable. But I tried to work with them to understand that let's balance your time out, let's take time for client development, let's take time for actually working with clients so that they could work with sales and marketing, but they needed to be responsive. So it was more about everybody working together, and I always say when you respect somebody's time, they will give you time. And that's what it was about working together and balancing out their time so that they can work with their clients but also grow their practice at the same time.

Speaker 2: 12:24

See, I think, evan, that John heard our previous podcast because we talked about when sales and marketing are on the same team. There could be a 200% growth in your business.

Speaker 3: 12:35

Right. So, and John, you know something that I think may be a good takeaway for some of the people in the audience what were some of the best practices that you worked on with the attorneys that you were working with to help them with that time management, with balancing all of their different responsibilities?

Speaker 4: 12:54

So the first thing I had to do, though, is make sure the attorneys were well aware that sales and marketing were a great resource to help you grow. I didn't have sales and marketing just follow up and business development just follow up, because they were checking a box. I made sure that the attorneys understood that this was a great resource. We actually created the marketing toolbox, and we had all these tools in the toolbox to help the attorney grow their practice, and it was about marketing and sales being seen as a tremendous resource to help them, and that was key. So, then, what we did was I made sure that sales and marketing, that they followed up, because that was another one of my pet peeves.

Speaker 4: 13:47

When you're working with a big originator, they are tremendously busy. I never wanted the big originator to have to follow up with sales and marketing. Where's my article? Where's my information for the lecture that I'm giving at a conference? Just like I don't want the big originator to have to follow up with an associate attorney that they gave work to? The big originator is busy enough. I wanted the sales and marketing and the associates to follow up so that they would close the loop. I never wanted them to have to be chased for their work product.

Speaker 2: 14:25

So let's pivot here a little bit. I know when you and I talk. You talked about doing a disc assessment. So, for the case of the audience, give them a brief description of how you define your DISC assessment.

Speaker 4: 14:36

So DISC assessments is a behavioral analysis. It's a behavioral assessment. What it basically does is it uncovers everybody's behavioral style, and there are really four distinct different behavioral styles. And D the D stands for dominance, the I stands for influencer, s stands for somebody that's like kind of steady, and C is for compliant. And so when you think of those terms, d you think of like a Tiger Woods and I you think of somebody like a Oprah Winfrey, and S you think of somebody like a Mother Teresa, and C you think of somebody like Bill Gates highly compliant.

Speaker 4: 15:20

So when you're communicating, when you're working with people that have behavioral styles that are different from you, it's not what I say, it's how they hear it. And what happens is when you work with different people on a daily basis and you take action and you try to understand that everybody's different, what happens is you start to communicate more effectively with people that are different than you. I will tell you that one of the attorneys I used to work with, she used to call me her chameleon, because she said, john, you change your approach based on who you're working with. And I said well, that's what you have to do in order for them to hear what I'm saying so. It's not what I say, it's how I say.

Speaker 3: 16:10

And John, you're preaching to the choir. I'm also a big proponent, a big believer in DISC when it comes to sales and business development, and one of the rules that I have for attorneys, accountants, professionals that I'm coaching is not the golden rule, which is what we learned in kindergarten, which is treat other people the way you want to be treated, because not everybody wants to be treated the same way I want to be treated. It's the platinum rule, which is treat other people the way that they want to be treated. So, again, if you're working with people and they've got that insight in terms of their style and how to read other people, that they can then read other folks and again, be that chameleon and work with other people in a way that's going to work best for them rather than well. This is who I am, so I'm going to be this way with everyone.

Speaker 2: 17:00

And I'll say that ultimately, a lot of those assessments that you guys would do in your disciplines I would want to know because my job is to get to talk to those people from a marketing perspective. So if I understand their behavior this is where we talked about the profiles before Evan and other episodes If I understand their behavior, then I will absolutely create content, write content, create pages. All that stuff that goes with it, in addition to the design stuff, will all apply to that disc assessment. If we don't know the avatar we're shooting for.

Speaker 3: 17:28

It's tough to design and put something together to hit the right audience.

Speaker 2: 17:33

The last thing I need to do is try to preach to a Bill Gates and talk to an Oprah Winfrey, to use your own words. That's totally two different personalities. And I think, a lot of businesses and we're talking law firms right now because technology makes things so easy. I can pick up my phone, I can just type something on Canva or whatever it might be. The tools are meant to make your job a little easier, but that doesn't mean you escape the disk assessment or understanding who you're talking to, and that's a big point I wanted to make sure I put on top of that. So do you tell me about the typical process that you go through with your clients? You get a new client on? What's the process you go through with them?

Speaker 4: 18:17

you get a new client on, what's the process you go through with them. So good question, um, the very first thing I do is we schedule a disc assessment because I want to know their behavioral style so I can communicate with them most effectively, and everybody's different um. So, like an I, they don't run on a tight schedule. A d, they don't want to know all the details, they would just want to know how they can win. And a C, they wanted a lot of the details. And S they were going to take their time to decide.

Speaker 4: 18:47

So by doing a disc assessment, we also do a debrief. We go through together with my client and myself. We go through their whole assessment, line by line, and then we'll highlight in green what they agree with and we'll highlight in yellow what they don't agree with. And then what I do is I put together a summary, and that summary, that assessment, is used in every time we connect, whether it's a quick call or whether we're going through a coaching module. It is used to kind of dictate how we're working together so that I can get the most, they can get the most out of it, because in reality, if they're not vested and they're not getting the most out of it. It's not going to be good for either of us. So the disc assessment really sets the tone of how we work together and I keep that in mind so that I don't do something that is not good for them.

Speaker 2: 19:49

So the question I have for you is what does John DePrince, evan Poland and Craig Andrews all have in common? Do you know?

Speaker 4: 19:58

So I'm going to tell you we're all great at what we do.

Speaker 2: 20:04

Oh, good one. I love your answers.

Speaker 3: 20:07

He's invited back.

Speaker 2: 20:09

Exactly, exactly. I was going to say we're all Philly guys, we're all Philly fans, everything Philadelphia. That's the part of the thing I wanted to make sure we get to the audience, in case they're listening from all over the country, which they are Unlike some of our Philadelphia athletes.

Speaker 3: 20:26

John will work back-to-back days.

Speaker 2: 20:29

That's right. That's right, John. Do you have anything coming up that you want to tell the audience about any type of events?

Speaker 4: 20:38

Yeah, so what I do is I do workshops. And the reason I do workshops is because, probably, like you guys, coaching services are bought. They're not sold. So I serve my market, I serve the people, I provide value, how I can help them build credibility, and by doing workshops I can really help a law firm, I can help an accounting firm, I can help entrepreneurs understand what they need to focus on to grow their business, and I do it from an operational standpoint.

Speaker 4: 21:15

So what I do is I do workshops. So, um, I did a workshop yesterday, um, at a chamber of commerce. It was on strategic planning and afterwards I send them the information. So that's what I do. I do the workshops. And then what happens is they raise their hand and they say, john, how can, how can I get more of that? We jump on a call and we talk about some of their challenges and how I can help them, and that starts the process. So what do I do? I do workshops, I help people and then they ultimately say can you help me? And it's when they raise their hand they need help. That's when my coaching starts.

Speaker 2: 21:58

Evan, do you have anything to add to that?

Speaker 3: 22:00

So the only other question I might have is, John, you know, as you're talking to folks, what are one or two of the biggest issues, biggest challenges that you see that get someone to raise their hand and say, hey, I think we need to sit down and talk a little bit more.

Speaker 4: 22:16

So I like that question and I've been asked that a few different times and I'm going to tell you where I start. When somebody says I'm having a hard time attracting and retaining great staff, I will say that I learned in this remote environment that it made people less loyal to their employer. People move around a lot more and so the business owner, the managing partner, they struggle with attracting and retaining great staff and I can tell you one thing that definitely helps is training, training, training, training. Reason being is because look at the difference between chick-fil-a and mcdonald's chick-fil-a seven million dollars a year per location. Um, mcdonald's is half that.

Speaker 4: 23:08

You walk into a chick-fil-a that people are friendly and nice, you can tell they're trained. Chick-fil-a does well because they train, and I believe in the same thing. Training people give them the tools to be successful, make them feel emotionally connected to the organization. People that work, that support the growth. They want to feel seen, heard and valued. And when you do that and you make that emotional connection, which is more challenging in a remote environment, people will stay, they will really enjoy working with you and they will stick around and they'll be loyal. So that's something that if you hear hard to attract and retain great staff. That is why.

Speaker 2: 23:53

Brilliant. So, john, tell the audiences how they can figure you, reach you, contact you.

Speaker 4: 24:01

So through Focal Point, john D Prince at focalpointcoachingcom. You can send me an email. Jdeprince at focalpointcoachingcom. I have a website. Prince at focal point coachingcom. I have a website. I'm on LinkedIn. John D Prince on LinkedIn. I'm sure there's not too many John D Prince's out there, but certainly not your Philadelphia area. No, the only other John D Prince I know is my father, and he's not.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Awesome, awesome. So, speaking of that, you can watch the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed on YouTube. We're also on LinkedIn and we're on every major podcast out there between Apple, spotify, amazon and others. So if you're interested in watching our show, please by all means like, subscribe. If you have a comment for John, evan and me, by all means put your comments in there and follow us on LinkedIn. We're at the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed. And what was that thing you said the other day, evan?

Speaker 3: 25:06

It's sales and the ampersand. Don't type out and but put the little ampersand in.

Speaker 2: 25:10

Put the ampersand in. Follow us, and thank you, john, for coming by and answering some questions for us. You have a word.

Speaker 4: 25:20

Yeah. So, craig Evan, it was really nice connecting with you. I enjoyed being part of ProVisors. Met a lot of nice people. I'm new to ProVisors but I can tell you it feels like I've been there for years because everybody was so friendly and welcoming. It feels like I've been there for years because everybody was so friendly and welcoming. So I appreciate this opportunity. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 25:38

And stay tuned for our next episode of the Sales and Marketing Playbook, unleashed, unleashed.

Speaker 1: 25:45

I like that. Thank you for joining us on this exhilarating journey through the world of sales and marketing. Remember, the playbook is in your hands and the possibilities are limitless. Keep exploring, experimenting and innovating, and watch as your business reaches unprecedented levels of success. Don't forget to subscribe to the Sales and Marketing Playbook Unleashed on all major podcast platforms, and follow us on YouTube, facebook and LinkedIn for even more exclusive content. Until next time, keep hustling and keep winning.